Adult Apprenticeships - Maths and English requirements going

[TeenToTwenties]

Interested whether anyone has any view on this? My gut reaction is it is a good thing. If someone can do sufficient maths/English to pass the technical side of their qualification I don't think they should be held back from passing because they haven't passed maths/English GCSE / L2 FS.

But wondering what the alternative argument might be.

But they aren't changing the funding so that's an irrelevant argument.
If you mandate attending m+e lessons as part of Apps you will just get them not turning up. There will be every excuse under the sun but they simply won't attend and as it isn't a mandatory requirement then providers will have no leg to stand on ie the learner will still get their Apprenticeship even if they attend 0 sessions of m+E

FS is definitely easier than GCSE and I think they probably could pass.

Won't the apprenticeship require some subject theory as well?

Except currently they can't go to EPA without passing so they can't achieve the Apprenticeship without having passed. So that's the incentive. Take away the incentive and you leave providers with no way of enforcing attendance at teaching sessions

I didn’t say provision is good everywhere. I gave an example of how it can be good.

In fact, I left when my managers decided to adopt a “one size fits all” approach, which predictable consequences.

As to why the situation is so dire for 16-19 learners in College, well, blame Michael Gove (always a good shout). The idea that you improve performance by doing the same stuff that didn’t work at school over again, with fewer lessons and (possibly) less well qualified teachers, is nuts. However, that’s what happens.

4 or above at GCSE or a pass in L2 FS is generally an entry requirement for L3, though I’ve known some (limited) flexibility with that.

Surely the incentive is getting FS in E&M?

If that isn't enough of an incentive because they don't actually need it for what they want to do, then why should it be a requirement to pass the course?

Not true.

This decision is understandable, driven by the need to fill skills gaps and get the economy moving as quickly as possible. It's also mistaken for those who take a longer view as it restricts access to higher education in the future for apprentices who want to improve their qualifications later. Although English and maths are a barrier for some apprentices, others, especially older apprentices, see it as a real achievement if they kept failing at school. It's hard to see how the UK can be serious about sustaining a buoyant economy when, currently, one on six adults have the reading age of an 11-year old and our maths skills are among the poorest in Europe.

My DC1 has a diagnosis of dyslexia (and dyscalculia) and has received specialist provision throughout statutory education since primary school as directed in her EHCP.

She's still dyslexic AF and will struggle to obtain FS English (and FS Maths) next year, despite years of reasonable adjustments and access arrangements.

But ask her to do something practical, or care for something, or organise or project manage something, she's your kid. She's conscientious and hardworking, and desperate to gain some kind of a foothold in an employment market hostile to young people who lack the conventional bottom line of '5 good GCSEs'.

I nearly cried in my car hearing this news on the radio on my way home from work earlier. It has literally opened the door to a future we never imagined possible when reviewing her EHCP as recently as last week, and discussing post 16 options. This is groundbreaking and SO very sensible.

I am pro this step.

I think some vocational qualification have too much academic criteria. I went to see a T level in agricultural machinery. Most people looking wanted to know how to fix a tractor and then go to work fixing tractors. It had a perfectly reasonable maths and science entry criteria maths and science were relevant. but the English requirement was so they could complete a 'mini dissertation' of a long essay on a subject like comparing an electric engine to a diesel one, so they could go to university as a T level is prep for uni not just work.

Which is why DD is now NEET. Couldn't progress to the L3 vocational course because didn't get E or M (by a couple of marks for E), and all the L2 courses were then full.

She worked hard, and her teachers were great. She just struggles academically, especially in exams.

This can not be said enough times.

This was about 10 years ago and when you needed gcses for level 3 courses.

Actually, the extremely wordy format of FS Maths questions and their tendency to ask learners to incorporate information from all of (e.g.) the text, a supplementary table and a graph, tend to make them especially difficult for dyslexics, never mind the context, which may be unfamiliar and confusing. Fish farms used to be a favourite scenario, God knows why.
Perhaps they’ve improved, though I doubt it.

Currently doing an apprenticeship at the grand age of 42 as I changed careers.

I got a D in maths, but managed a career in financial services for 20 years... but I still need to do functional skills maths!

I would love if they removed the requirement or atleast used common sense!
I was 16 and I'm not 42... I manage my own finances, have applied for mortgages and have done my own tax return but because I don't know how to work out the circumference of a circle I have jump an extra hoop!

I was teaching FS Maths, complete with (fairly basic) algebra, even at L1, ten years ago.

A plumber does need to be able to read and understand the instructions for fitting stuff though - for example a dishwasher or boiling water tap may have requirements specific to a make/ manufacturer. They also need to do accounts and give quotes. Doing measurements & calculations for fittings will also be needed.

Why would they pass the apprenticeship if they couldn't understand instructions for a dishwasher? Surely if they need to be able to do that, it's part of the assessment?

I said that she was doing gcses back then. I have no knowledge of what is in functional skills. I was making the bigger point of someone who was good at her job, passed the course, but couldn't qualify because of the need for a qualification she couldn't get. I was hoping people would extrapolate this example to the current situation.

Wonderful news for my son who is doing a level 2 in plumbing and will be sitting his maths gcse for the 3rd time in May.
I feel so much lighter today and feel there is a huge glimmer of hope for him and all the others.

This is for 19+ only. 16-18 will still have the requirement

It's still helpful though as a lot of children with difficulties do a level 2 course for 16 -18 in their vocational area. They would then be ready for a level 3 apprentiship that previously might not have been passable due to this.

Obviously they still need the ability to access the course but it seems people were passing the apprentiship elements but couldnt get the certificate as they didn't have the English or maths pass.

Not the same as removing all requirements completely, but there is some existing flexibility for some apprenticeships with learning difficulties and disabilities which covers 16-18 year olds. It’s explained more here.

If you have SEN you can already get a dispensation and complete your apprenticeship with just an entry level qualification in some circumstances. Otherwise FS is genuinely achievable for most people. The government could easily have just reviewed the L2 maths, which is the main sticking point. Even then with proper support and qualified tuition, most people can get it. It’s significantly more straightforward than GCSE.

The so called ‘barrier’ is more to to do with crap training providers who offer ropey online provision and want to employ tutors on £24k a year, when a qualified teacher can earn nearly double that doing the same job in FE. Unfortunately this move lets crap training providers and crap employers off the hook.

My understanding is that this is for older people, say in their 30s, who didn't get English or maths back in the day for whatever reason and were now well and truly stuck.

My niece is 34. She decided to resit gcse maths last year because she wants to get into childcare. She had to pay for it and attend a local college - not everyone could do this.