Adult Apprenticeships - Maths and English requirements going

[TeenToTwenties]

Interested whether anyone has any view on this? My gut reaction is it is a good thing. If someone can do sufficient maths/English to pass the technical side of their qualification I don't think they should be held back from passing because they haven't passed maths/English GCSE / L2 FS.

But wondering what the alternative argument might be.

So maybe the requirement should stay for higher/degree apprenticeships (so level 4 upwarda) but not intermediate/advanced (level 2 &3)?

But if you need them to be accepted on to a L4 course then you would need to pass them as part of a L3 programme.
I understand your view for L2 but actually the written content requirement for some L3 Apprenticeships is quite high so a learner who couldn't pass FS L2 may struggle at L3. Maybe less for bricklaying, I don't know that occ area but certainly it is the case for others.
There is no intermediate/advanced terminology any more, that went out with Standards.

This isn't about HE though? Some of these apprenticeships will be equivalent to GCSE or A-level?

But a L3 is a on progression pathway now to a L4 which is foundation year so m+e would be required at that stage

Its worse than that because few places offer functional skills, its nearly all GCSE. So we are talking stopping someone being a plumber because they can’t analyse a nineteenth century text or use pythagoras theorem.

All ITPs offer FS, not GCSEs

What if they don't want to do L4? Should they be prevented in achieving their L3?

Of course not but don't be under any illusion, this isn't being done for the benefit of learners! Some L3 Apps require a decent proficiency in formal writing and a learner who can't pass L2 FS English would struggle to access the content/complete the work required.
Not all Apps are equal.

But it seems that they are currently being prevented from going onto L4?

As in, if it's an entry requirement for L4 to have M&E then it shouldn't have to be an exit requirement for L3.

So then if it isn't an exit requirement for L3 but is an entry requirement for L4 the only way to achieve it is by paying for tutor + to sit privately? Once you drop the mandatory requirement within Apps for 19+ then ITPs and colleges will only offer as part of 16-18 funding.

I work for a TP and we are horrified. To state that it will enable Care and Construction workers to complete is madness. They need maths skills! I mean in an ideal world they'd get above a grade 3 at GCSE when they've been in school for 11 years, but many don't!

There is a big difference between being numerically illiterate and unable to read/write and getting a pass in gcse English/maths.

The people towards the lower ends of this group are not going to be getting apprenticeships, because they won't be able to do the course work for the actual course.

But there is a group who can do the course and the work but cannot get the maths or English.

A friend's daughter did a vet nurse level 3 course but she could not pass maths. She resat it over and over and her parents paid for private lessons. She was great with the animals. She could do arithmetic fine, which is what you need in the job. But she could not pass.

The vet practice kept her on - as a cleaner. She left.

When I was at school in Scotland in the 70s we had separate O levels in maths and arithmetic. It would be worth looking at this going forward because not everyone needs to be able to do algebra.

Why?
Colleges have to provide teaching in English and maths, so why can't apprenticeships at L3 have a teaching requirement but not an actual exit requirement?

Funding

How do you suggest you get these kids/adults to attend teaching sessions if there is no mandated requirement for them to sit the test?

This. Bloody stupid decision.

@twistyizzy Funding. That isn't clear to me what you mean?
Colleges have clear teaching hours requirements for maths and English without a requirement to pass to get the A levels / Btecs. Why can't apprenticeships?

Because thats not how Apps are structured or funded. ITPs work on different funding models to colleges

Because attendance could be a requirement of the course?

Honestly the amount of effort my DD has put in over the years will surpass that of many kids who get a grade 9.

So change the funding?

Why prevent someone from passing a level 3 apprenticeship when you wouldn't prevent them from passing an A level or BTEC?

I think Functional skills should be offered by schools to all kids who they think are going to struggle to get a 4 in their Eng/Maths GCSEs. Why make those kids fail first?

Agree. Plus repetitive failing of GCSE knocks confidence and enthusiasm. It is so depressing.

Presumably if it's already a condition of funding that they have to pass E&M, can't they just change the condition to studying towards E&M?

There's no algebra in functional skills