Adult Apprenticeships - Maths and English requirements going

[TeenToTwenties]

Interested whether anyone has any view on this? My gut reaction is it is a good thing. If someone can do sufficient maths/English to pass the technical side of their qualification I don't think they should be held back from passing because they haven't passed maths/English GCSE / L2 FS.

But wondering what the alternative argument might be.

It applies to anyone over 19 on an apprenticeship. Some will still want to get their English and maths but now employers will be able to block it, and say it’s unnecessary. In any case your niece shouldn’t paid for a GCSE English course- GCSE English and maths courses are free.

I don't think it's a good idea really and I say that as an ex functional skills tutor for apprenticeships. What they should do is make sure that all apprentices without the grades are given proper teaching and support from day 1.

A lot of providers do not do this and wonder why their apprentices fail. Additionally, a lot of apprentices have undiagnosed leaning needs like dyslexia which has led to previous failures. Schools should be supporting these kids better and not just the ones whose parents can advocate for them or afford to have them tested to get the extra time, scribes etc for exams.

Also people who don't pass still have their other achievements for the apprenticeship and I think it's the providers who lose out on funding if they don't pass and it looks bad to OFSTED.

Why though? If you are say 42, want to get into childcare, have perfectly good maths and English but for some reason didn't get a qualification (maybe you just left care or came from abroad) and you are able to do the childcare level 2 coursework and the job itself, then why would you have to get the maths/ English?

It's a way for employers to see you have those skills rather than you just saying you have good maths and English. We have a horrible problem in this country of so many people being very poor at literacy and numeracy (special needs excluded). Also if you are working with children then it's important. It really isn't hard to pass functional skills and like most exams you only need about 60 percent correct to pass. If you are good at maths and English already then it will be easy to pass.

But lots of people aren't "good" at maths and English.

My daughter works in a nursery. They cannot recruit enough qualified staff. They sometimes have to tell parents their kids can't come in because of the staff to children ratios. There has to be X number of qualified staff per X number of children. They have play workers too, but they don't count in the ratios.

You might say that we should be encouraging well qualified people into the industry but the Gov has tried this and take up among those with decent qualifications is limited. The pay and hours are dreadful.

The play workers could do a level 2 and be qualified and counted in the ratios. Atm they can't be left unsupervised with the children.

But they don't have the English/maths and there are loads of reasons they won't do them in their spare time - poor self esteem from their experience of education for starters, being shattered after a 10 hour day on their feet with little kids, sitting in with teenagers.... They might be from homes where people didn't study, from the care system, from abroad. But they are good with kids.

So why insist on them going back to school?

My reference to good at maths was just in response to the person below who referenced this specifically. You do not need to be 'good' at maths or English to pass functional skills. It's not just about passing exams anyway. It's about being literate and numerate enough to function well at work and in life in general. A nursery worker, for instance, may need to work out ratios, bills for childcare, materials, food, timetabling and even do basic number work with the kids etc. They will need to write literate reports for children and read and understand early years education goals and no doubt a lot more. Lack of these qualifications can also hinder them later in life.

I think your comment is fair but specifically relating to apprenticeships, the argument that has been put forward for scrapping the English and maths requirement is one-sided and only favours the employers and training providers. If you put proper support in for apprentices, they can usually pass their functional skills. This equips them much better for future career prospects and career changes than the vocational qualifications alone.

I do think some of the young people don't help themselves enough and do any study independently in the first place and this disadvantages them.

I suspect that by the time they gave got to post 18 and not passed English/maths many people are convinced they can't. This will put mental blocks in front of attempting to achieve.
I know my own DD absolutely believes she won't pass this summer, and that is one of the major things we have to try to overcome.

There's a big difference between passing a GCSE and bot being able to read/count. I can work out things like mortgage repayments and do my own tax returns, but my son's maths GCSE makes zero sense.

It should be some kind of entry test related to the course/industry.

Functional skills are a fairly low standard.

IMHO there should be literacy and numeracy in every apprenticeship, but it should be relevant to the subject and include things like calculating how much tax you need to pay.

So that plumber, nail tech, baker, whatever can provide quotes, mix materials, pay the right taxes.

For some people the abstract doesn't 'click' eg teaching ratios. But giving someone a recipe for a dish for four people and then working out what you would need to buy to feed 20 does 'click' even though the abstract calculation is more complicated.

Functional skills maths is nowhere near as tough as maths GCSE and also it’s not abstract it’s all contextualised and that’s kind of the point. If you leave it to employers to ‘embed’ maths and English you will end up with employees with limited skills which are not transferable to other jobs or further study.

Whether you take functional skills or gcse at 16,I believe the pass rate is around 65% and then only another 20% pass when resitting at college so while I agree the student needs to know the maths and English used in their apprenticeship profession, I can see why the government have done this.

I'm not saying these people can't do maths or read or write- I'm saying they don't need to get a qualification at their age to prove it.

If they couldn't do basic stuff, the nursery wouldn't employ them, wouldn't offer them an apprenticeship, wouldn't see them pass the level 2 qualification. And if they are not very good at something, the likelihood is that the managers will make adjustments. For example my daughter, who is dyslexic, dictates notes to parents using software.