Is this the end of Latin in state schools?

[Edmontine]

Depressing news:

The Guardian

I think you are after getting confused, the thread is about Latin being taught as a subject at 2nd level, it is a small part of some courses at 3rd level ( which you will not need Latin in order to be accepted into those degree courses) but for all of those courses the amount of Latin you will need can be taught when studying for those courses.

But lack of it will skew what you can do higher up the discipline, and no, as a PhD student in English or History you can’t just suddenly learn Latin to the standard you need to be a medieval historian - it just isn’t plausible.

There really isn’t a requirement for that many medieval historians, Latin should not be taught at 2nd level just to facilitate the few who do want to go into that discipline, if you are that passionate about the subject you will find a way

Right, so your mother isn’t a relevant example, because she’s actually a native speaker and does Spanish history, not English history.

But would she think that it would be a good idea for her discipline if all British state schools stopped teaching Spanish? Who would end up doing Spanish history then?

edited as part of my post was a reply to a different poster (below)

Ok then, @BlueSky2024 why don’t we get rid of music and art in state schools because they don’t have the resources to teach it and it isn’t essential? Once we’ve got rid of those, plus sport, literature, languages, history and the social sciences, we can complete the transition of British state schooling into a set of dull technical and secretarial courses for the plebs: “AI operator studies”, “doing accounts for property developers”, “working in retail studies”, “machine operator studies” and “social media management”, and then we can rejoice knowing that no taxpayers’ money has been spent on anything that relates to our shared culture, art, enjoyment, higher ideals, intellectual curiosity or the pure joy of knowledge. Sounds wonderful! Isn’t that what you want?

Stop talking nonsense, I know people in both of those disciplines and neither studied Latin at 2nd level

You do not have to know the derivation of a word to learn what it means. I’d much rather my doctor had actually listened in lectures than guessed what terms meant. In any event (having studied Latin to the highest possible school level in Scotland, as well as speaking 3 modern Romance languages) I can tell you that no lessons involve rote learning of vocab so it’s highly likely that the vast majority of medical terms that come up in a medical degree were not ones that the student learned in their Latin lessons. Yes, you might recognise a few roots or suffixes and be comfortable with Latin word structure but we already have a lot of Latinate words in English so most articulate/well-read people know those anyway.

Honestly, I think you’re just a wind-up merchant now - you clearly don’t know much about education and don’t care to think about it seriously either.

I've said this elsewhere. I'd like to see Latin incorporated into subjects where it might be useful, rather than studied fully in its own right. You don't in most cases need to be able to decline and conjugate these days, but some confidence in recognising Latin from an etymology perspective can be so useful. It could be incorporated into biology, history, Law, other language learning etc.

As if I actually meant not listening in lectures because you can wing it by guessing terms - seriously! What an obtuse inference. That was merely an example of how much easier it makes it when you’re learning.

You don’t have to know the derivation of a word to know or learn what it means. But it makes it a lot quicker. You’re missing the point if you think this is about medical terms in school Latin. I gave an example of afferent vs efferent arteriole - if you’ve done Latin you will already know want those terms indicate and why. If you don’t you have to rote learn it.

I’m not sure why you’re telling someone who’s studied Latin what studying Latin involves.

You have been proven wrong and now you resort to insults, I can assure you that I’m more than likely better educated than you, 7 years of further education were required in order to charter and become a professional member of my discipline

I think she'd agree (but I would have to ask!).

well no. My point is that knowing the derivation of medical terms can’t possibly equip you to understand the actual function of the body parts. It’s just labels and we all learn labels for things all the time. It might help you distinguish between them when revising for an exam, but that’s a marginal gain really.

and no doubt a short “essential Latin for medical students” would quickly get those who had not done school exams in it to a similar point regarding recognition of terms. I’m not saying that Latin is useless, far from it. I’m saying that the study of Latin to GCSE or A level is not necessary to gain an advantage in medicine or Law. It has other benefits of course.

I’m not sure the first point is true - you can deduce function from the terms - my example was afferent and efferent arterioles - one delivers blood to the glomerulus for filtering the other carries it away - which indicates how the kidney works. (Glomus = ball of thread, ad ferre/ ex ferre etc) So the terms help you understand and remember the function. And 90% of the terms are Latin/Greek.

Nor am I convinced you can do essential Latin quickly while studying medicine which is quite hard enough work of itself.

Exactly, Latin constitutes a minor component of a medical degree, with doctors only needing a basic understanding to comprehend certain medical terminology. Similarly, lawyers also benefit from a foundational knowledge of Latin, particularly in understanding key legal terms and phrases

How much medicine have you done?

My statement is accurate, it’s common knowledge

Personally I would rather schools invested in modern foreign languages than Latin...

I did 2 years of Latin at school and it was the most dreary, uninspired curriculum I've ever studied. Learning pointless phrases like "Caecius est in atrio" I learnt far more about Latin from learning modern languages, history, biology, and even gardening than I ever did from our dreadful old Latin books.

Mhm so none.

You clearly know nothing about medicine or what it entails to be a doctor if you were not aware of that, I am in a different field ( same level of education required), but I was aware of that, as I said, it’s common knowledge

😆 I’m an academic with four Oxbridge degrees (mixed Ox and Cam), including a PhD, two postdoctoral fellowships and have worked in academia (including in the US) for 20 years. But, honestly, you go you commenting on humanities academia as an accountant or whatever; obviously you know so much more about it!

I can also tell you that Latin is actually pretty highly valued as an academic subject in the US system - as it is in the rest of Europe - but funnily enough, not here, where it’s a vehicle for people to exercise their class envy about how much they dislike private schools, rather than think that state school educated kids might benefit from being able to learn a rigorous, traditional humanities subject.

Do you think that they should be learning sociology and media studies and childcare instead? Why don’t you think ordinary kids deserve to learn decent subjects instead of made-up fluff?

But, honestly, you go you commenting on humanities academia as an accountant or whatever; obviously you know so much more about it!

With four Oxbridge degrees, one would expect a better-constructed sentence than this, it completely lacks clarity😂,

I’m an Architect by the way, not that it’s really relevant to the thread

I have personally found Latin invaluable to anatomy, physiology, pathology and pharmacology.

So you keep saying. Not sure that anyone is convinced.

The popular comic idioms are often confusing, aren’t they!

I have personally found Latin invaluable to anatomy, physiology, pathology and pharmacology.

Indeed. It was medical terminology that my DM was relieved to find readily accessible to her in the 1950s - because of her grounding in Latin on another continent as a child.

It really makes no difference to me either way whether you believe it or not, I have all the paperwork to prove it to relevant people, and have been accepted as a member of the Royal Institute of Architects,