Is this the end of Latin in state schools?

[Edmontine]

Depressing news:

The Guardian

I find this really sad, especially cutting the funding midway through the year. I've never studied Latin, but my state grammar did offer it, and my closest friend (now a lawyer) ended up studying Classics at Cambridge, having loved it at GCSE.

I do worry that it is part of a wider creeping philistinism/utilitarianism in education, and wonder how close we are to deciding that things like Music and History and English Literature are useless subjects too, and can fall by the wayside.

A big part of the appeal of the secondary we're considering for DD - a girls' state comp - is that it currently offers not only Latin but also Ancient History at GCSE. I have no idea whether DD would choose to pursue either of these options, but the fact that they seem to go the extra mile to offer some slightly niche academic subjects, rather than forcing everyone through the STEM cookie cutter model is a real bonus for us.

I also wonder what all these future reluctant STEM graduates will actually end up doing careers-wise.

My Latin O and H grades from a Scottish comprehensive in the 1970s were were extremely useful. How cruel to stop the funding halfway through the year.

Well is the answer if state schools can’t afford to offer it then no one should do it?

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DTs school can't even offer French.

But what is Latin at GCSE a gateway to?

You can study it for A Level with no prior knowledge, same as a lot of subjects. It doesn't mean it's necessary as a GCSE. You could say the same for something like economics.. any knowledge at all is a bonus but that doesn't mean it's necessary or essential as a subject at 16 years old. A Level or beyond is fine.

No. Why should some not do it because others can’t afford it?

@TempsPerdu absolutely agree - classicist knowledge as 'useful' or not useful' - AI is going to be able to do an awful lot of number crunching and coding in the future, where is the human value ad - from new ideas, creativity and, some of these 'useless' subjects are great for encouraging critical and creative thinking.

We are globally rich, and we can't fund a few 'useless' subjects for our children? I don't know why parents settle for the bargain basement approach to education we've got.

Then is the answer that it is time we moved to a system where the core subjects are taught for ‘free’ and some subjects are paid for? That way schools could offer Latin if there is the demand from parents who could afford it?

It’s Labour treating children badly again. Women, children, old people, who knows what’s going to happen to disabled people.

😂

Oh no! Let's rush to console the traumatised children who won't be able study latin.

I will turn this around. God damn those conservatives who allowed my school get away with NOT teaching me latin. Ruined my life, it has.

Having an even basic knowledge of Latin is really useful in so many ways.

Our son's school did it (a state school) for GCSE. In the first year, they did "language learning" which was a mix of Latin and Greek as an introduction which included things like the Greek alphabet (useful for later sciences), Latin suffixes and prefixes which are useful for English and modern languages, sentence construction, grammar etc. I found it fascinating to look at his text book, work books, homework, etc. Even things like "hyper" and "hypo" are really good to know in other subjects and real life. If you know all the common prefixes and suffixes you can make a pretty good guess at what a word means that you've never seen before so it can really help with English and other language skills, well certainly many of the European languages with Latin origins - maybe not so much of a help with German!!

After first year, they had the choice to continue taking Latin or to take a second foreign language. Many carried on with Latin and it was a very popular GCSE.

I think all state education should be free. State schooling needs huge investment (including offering Latin, more sport, more Art, more Music) , which no one seems prepared to provide. Income tax could be increased to help Education. All parties shy away from this. The current plasters on open wounds, just won’t work.

I did Latin from age 8, took it for GCSE and for A level. Also took Ancient History for A Level and studied Ancient Greek. First degree was in Archaeology.

I would hands down say the Latin A level was the hardest thing I have ever studied - combo of language, history and literature all in one. The idea of doing A level from scratch seems terrifying.

DD's comp offer Latin and Classical Civ - both very popular, sadly she wasn't keen on Latin and Class. Civ didn't fit options blocks. No news that department is closing, so I hope they can keep it going.

Such soft bigotry and small mindedness from Labour.

Latin is helpful for understanding English let alone other languages, medicine, history, law.

Yes, you can do Latin and Ancient Greek from scratch at A level it would be very hard work. Much easier to start it when you’re younger.

I begged to do Latin for GCSE, but my failing state school couldn’t offer it.

I’m now in my mid 30s self studying to privately take the GCSE. It’s helpful for grammar, vocabulary and being able to understand legal documents. It’s also a leveller for social mobility when you understand and can correctly use Latin phrases that have been adopted into English (eg caveat emptor, pari passu).

There’s also a great deal to be learnt from Classics, and I’m now reading a lot of them for the first time as an adult, but there are quite deep themes and philosophical considerations that would be valuable if taught to the masses.

I think this is a move in the wrong direction and there should be more done to bring stereotypically ‘high brow’ subjects into more schools, not make them even more elite.

I can't stand labour, nor can I abide by the Tories so I expect nothing from either. I just don't see 40 schools having their Latin funding cut at GCSE as such a huge deal. I'm not saying people shouldn't care at all but I think in terms of education funding this should be low down the list.

My DD's state comp still offers it but there's 3000 students so they can afford to offer niche courses

Withdrawing funding part way through the academic year is particularly spiteful of Labour.

Latin underpins so much of our language and culture.

Why is it essential that all children do all 3 sciences, yet those - like me and many others I knew - should be prevented from studying the subjects we knew we wanted to do from a very young age?

My DD loathes sciences with a passion - why can't she just take one? Would massively help with the extreme shortage of science teachers if you can cut those down?

handy for a Classic Degree though, always under subscribed

What would be sensible is if it became much easier to take GCSEs outside school if you wanted to.

I have a friend whose DS is home ed. He's extremely advanced for his age and is desperate to do classics at university. He can take Latin privately but is finding it impossible to take Ancient Greek as no exam centre will allow him to sit the subject using a laptop (SEN).

@lakesandplains Completely agree; I find it alarming how reductive the arguments around the purpose of education have become, and the almost complete loss of the idea of knowledge for knowledge's sake, or the understanding of how a holistic, broad-based education can foster wellbeing in later life. Everything has to be monetised now, and it seems the only subjects areas worth studying in economic terms are STEM, but with only the very vaguest suggestion of where all these amazing STEM jobs are going to come from.

Thus far my own (still very young) DD seems to be an academic all-rounder, but much like me she has a firm preference for literate subjects over numerate ones, and is far more inspired by English and the Arts than Maths. I find it depressing that in future her opportunities to realise her potential in these areas might be limited by the utilitarian direction that our education system is taking (I say this having just returned from a parents' information session at her current primary in which the teachers made it very clear that all they really cared about curriculum-wise were reading and maths).

Labour ARE spiteful, especially around education seems, and anything they view as being elitist (in their narrow world view)

My main issue with this is cutting funding halfway through the school year. That's just cruel and shortsighted. You shouldn't do that for any subject.

There are a couple of state schools in my area that do Latin. My DC's would have hated it but I know children of friends who are doing it and enjoying it. I think if something has to go, then I can see the logic of Latin being one of those options.

But midway through year 10/11? Unforgivable.

(I say this a labour voter)

I don't disagree, at all. But that's a wider conversation, the impact of this cut to funding for Latin impacts only 40 schools. Yes it's not ideal and it's shambolic timing but I think there are bigger educational issues to address first (such as a universal option for single science, more locational subjects, increased funding for mental health services in schools etc). It's only my opinion that Latin doesn't need to really have much of a place in GCSE education.