Is this the end of Latin in state schools?

[Edmontine]

Depressing news:

The Guardian

Correct! In vino veritas ☺

Yes, of course they can.

Actually I think giving children the option of studying Mandarin would be a good thing.

But looking at DD's school entries, they facilitate exams in over 15 languages for those who want to do native language or do twilight classes in one after school.

History of Art forms part of the Art GCSE and if you play Polo you can use it as part of your PE GCSE, so not quite the same thing.

Latin is taught not just as a language - but covers more in terms of literature and history than a MFL does. And it's one that isn't covered elsewhere.

But can be covered at A Level and beyond.

Yes, indeed. I didn't say it wasn't useful - I said that the vast majority of us won't use much Maths after GCSE/ 'O' level, and in that respect it's not v different to Latin. Latin also has a range of careers for which it is very useful:

Curator
Travel and tourist industry
Archivist
Linguist
Academic researcher - especially historian
TV presenters
Medical transcriptionist
Whole range of areas within Theology/History/ Politics

And, actually, the banking sector loves graduates with Classics degrees, because they prove that they can think analytically, that they have a good eye for detail, and the essay writing side of the degree means that they are good at writing reports on less tangible subjects such as the working culture of an industry in which you might want a company to invest. In these areas it's actually a Humanities degree rather than Maths that is valuable, since the computers and calculators can produce the figures.

Most of all, however, it is fun while offering valuable intellectual training, which is why classics-related books/ films/ video games [yet another industry for which it is helpful] are so popular.

I feel a bit sad about this and also the decline of MFL. 2 of my kids have studied Latin and have loved it. It is much more than the language but also the history and how Latin fits into the language we use today. As an adult, I feel sad that we do not learn languages in the same way that other countries do. Also, I think a language like Mandarin is very hard for us as Europeans to learn. I have a Chinese friend whose son was bilingual in English and Mandarin. He was learning the written language from the second he was born. It is language that we need to learn from day one really and I imagine for European children would be difficult to pick up in any kind of fluency. My brother has lived in Poland for 20 years but his language fluency is still not complete and his wife has to help him with any formal writing as he would likely make mistakes.

Not if you never knew that you were even interested because you never encountered the subject at school in any way.

I totally agree. The later you leave first exposure, the harder it gets to pick them up.

I speak 5 languages and have worked all over the world because of that. I spent 10 years in Italy - I didn't know a word of Italian when I first moved there, but just used Latin to help and I was fluent within 9 months. My Italian friends had all done Latin at school and thought it was very amusing - and more importantly could understand what I was saying even if it wasn't the modern Italian word.

Ancient Greek even came in handy for being able to recognise the Greek alphabet and have a bash at working out modern Greek words

Would you say the same about accounting, economics, business? Because those are traditionally subjects first taught at A Level and yet seems popular enough.

97.3% of state schools don't teach Latin in KS3, are you saying those taking it at A Level predominantly come from the remaining 2.7% of schools?

In 2019, 68 state-maintained schools in England offered A-level Latin. Of these, 56 schools entered five or fewer students.

In 2019, 1,121 students entered for A-level Latin in England.

76% of entries coming from the independent sector.

Not sure there are any schools offering Latin at A level that don't offer it at GCSE (6th forms excluded).

Given the small numbers, it would be very hard to do A level Latin at a 6th form college where over half the class had potentially been studying it since they were 7 and already had a solid grasp of grammar, language, cultural references etc.

I think my post proved that maths is much more valuable than Latin as a subject, Latin is just one of those subjects that is interesting but 99% of people can still potentially do very well in life without it, not really necessary

In which case it doesn't sound particularly necessary in a state school curriculum and there are better ways to spend education funding.

More concerned because it is alongside the decline in MFL, to be honest.

That’s a philistine utilitarian approach. You can get by life without Latin as you can get by without most subjects other than basic English and arithmetic. I

If you do study Latin it’s very useful for understanding the English language, learning foreign languages, for history, law, medicine etc.

I think that’s a fair point. The decline of foreign languages in this country is concerning.

You asked earlier about Economics and Business Studies...

DD's comp offers GCSE Economics, Business Studies, Psychology, and Latin and Classical Civ.

I see that as a good thing.

Mainly I think choice is a positive - which is what I dislike about so many compulsory subjects that may not suit a lot of children.

DS did Latin at his state school and i thought it was a brilliant option for kids who didn't want to do an MFL - or have to do a speaking exam. It was about much more than just the language as well. I'd have loved to do it instead of shitty GCSE French which for me was completely pointless. I remember going to Paris and trying to ask where the supermarket was and nobody had a clue what the fuck I was saying. Total waste of time.

I'm sad for the kids who now won't get the chance to do it and even more so for those who are now having it pulled from under them when they've already started the course. Honestly I've never voted Conservative but so far Labour have been the shittiest of shit shows - can anyone actually think of a single positive thing they've done?

Other commenters that have studied law have already commented that their school level Latin was of little or no use to them, the ammount of Latin you need for medicine can be learnt when you are studying for your medical degree.
Instead of learning a language (that is no longer used) in order to learn another language, just learn that language instead, how many languages do you think most kids are learning / need?

So your daughter's school is part of the 2.7%, not necessarily representative of state schools as a whole.

I expect most of those subjects are learnt for the first time at A Level, as I did with business studies and psychology. I'm not advocating for Latin to disappear off the face of the Earth but don't see it as necessary in a GCSE curriculum and therefore a waste of funding when schools are failing in so many areas. In a perfect world kids could study anything they wanted at school but it isn't, and they can't. So we prioritise.

You are incredibly ignorant.

It’s really not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. There are more important things to spend money on in education.

Oh and by the way, in addition to my earlier reply to your comment, I’m far from a philistine, I’m an Architect

I did Latin and Classic Greek at GCSE level and as much as I enjoyed it, I've really never used it beyond making the cool comment at dinner parties.

Oh and by the way, in addition to my earlier reply to your comment, I’m far from a philistine, I’m an Architect

Res ipsa loquitur!

(Only joking.)

Large parts of my discipline and surrounding disciplines are impossible to do without a knowledge of Latin, so it really constrains those from state schools in terms of subjects in higher education and academia (I went to a comprehensive that didn’t offer Latin). If you want lots of non-science university subjects to be basically only accessible by private school kids then this is the way to go. There are a fair few niche jobs which require it, too, from librarianship to archival curating. Does it sound like a progressive thing to make these jobs inaccessible to anyone from the state sector?