How's the Private School VAT increase impacting you?

[mumsthewordi]

To private fee paying ...are kids/s still in private ? Are you comfortably still able to afford and happy paying it ?

To state, how do you feel? Have you been impacted by more kids in class or would you expect that to play out this year? Or perhaps you weren't supportive ?
Do you think state schools will improve ?

Full disclosure
A struggling fee paying parent of one kid only other is at state and my oh is an amazing secondary school teacher - we are a divided household indeed at time, but we've made choices best for us.

Am I denying you your freedom of speech? If you want to be involved with the church then go for it. Why let them - or any other religious institution - get their mitts on young kids though?

There’s more than one parent in this family and I decided to compromise. I’ll accept the charge of hypocrisy.

University is different. I have conflicting views on it but one thing I strongly dislike is how commodified it’s begun, as if the whole purpose of going is to get a better job. As opposed to, you know, learning.

‘ Those students who “only” went to a grammar school were backed up by a system arguably often as wealth-based as their private school counterparts’

https://www.varsity.co.uk/comment/28116

A little context. Though none should be needed.

State grammars sit uncomfortably between state comprehensive education and private education. So what camp does a free yet selective school fit into?

In 2022, 68.1% of Oxford admissions came from ‘state’ schools, but no line is ever (publicly) drawn to understand / analyse the figures of selective and non-selective schools. Which seems… ridiculous. Somehow people are content to lump all state schools into one homogeneous mass. Peculiar, but useful for some.

Certainly where people cry ‘look the state schools are out-performing private, suckers!’ - it is pretty clear most (not all) of such schools are selective - ie. grammars.

As a PP has mentioned, officially, they are saying they will change that now.

I digress. VAT on private schools. The filthy rich privileged few, deserve it damn them.

We agree on more than either of us may have realised.

Newspapers often over-simplify things and give a narrow perspective to push their preferred story.

But proper analysis does often distinguish between grammar and comprehensive.

E.g

The 2019 Cambridge paper 'Analysis of student characteristics and attainment outcomes at the University of Cambridge' here:
https://www.cao.cam.ac.uk/admissions-research/app-research-papers-2020
(4th file down)

I haven't seen analysis which distingishes between selective and non-selective private. Which probably betrays prejudice, and certainly makes interpretation of results difficult. You do occasionally see a breakdown by school (not in the paper above)

@strawberrybubblegum I’m sure they do.

I was more referring to those in whose interest, it is not, to define the obvious differences (and implications of those differences) in state school provision.

Currently the Labour Party do not differentiate between state schools. It is on the way, I’m sure. At some point they’ll go for grammars, as Corbyn tried to do with his ‘education not segregation’ or whatever inappropriate slogan it was that he waved about on the back benches.

Again a thread diversion. VAT yes. Has had little impact at our school, we’ve not discussed it for months. Perhaps more of an impact at entry level.

I think Keir Starmer's educational manifesto - and policy commitments as well as overall politics is entirely different to Corbyns, even with the Labour party back benches I don't think they will go after grammars - in any meaningful way, maybe they'll just try to increase access.

I think with one swift and not very effective VAT-increase, like you say they've demonstrated to the voters they are apparently on the side of the real working class and that they are committed to equality of opportunity. I don't think the increase however, archives either, so as a historical Labour supporter, I fall in that middle ground like so many of us , feeling we pay the most in taxes in our everyday life as middle to higher earners and now with schooling too.

“Why let them - or any other religious institution - get their mitts on young kids though?”

@durness - all institutions are equally flawed. The older they are, the more you will find. It is very important to realise that.
Good church schools are communities of real people - the old it takes a “village”. There are tons of volunteers across the generations, there are linked scout groups and community initiatives. Especially in places like London, churches are stable communities - kids stay in touch with their primary school friends via the church, get married there eventually and trust is established across generations and different ethnicities and nationalities. This is especially true for Roman Catholic Churches.

If the school didnt offer you the wrap around care then it wasn’t good r though then, was it?

Although childminders (and au pair or Nannys) are a thing and many, many, many people use those options alongside state school for wrap around so your argument doesn’t convince me.

@Tiredalwaystired - you are missing the point though.
How is it “fair” or just that our state primary school offers breakfast club, after school care until 6 every day, holiday clubs and ample extra curricular clubs as well? And some state school do not offer a fraction of that? And that some people who have had to pay up due to that lacking in some state schools, are now going to be penalised? And given we know most of them are economic contributors, it is just another example of poor economics by Labour.

Nope. You’re right. Genuinely still not getting your point. The school is there for the education but If you felt the education offered at that school was going to be excellent for your child then you could have chosen that and paid for wrap around.

Instead as I understand it, you rejected the school in favour of one that offered bells and whistles. As you’re paying for it one way or the other the “not fair” point you put across (which I agree with) has nothing to do with the original point you made and you’re deflecting.

@Tiredalwaystired - you must be confusing me with someone else! DC4 still attend the state primary school, with all the breakfast and after school clubs on offer.

I did not reject any school. I said my DCs attended an excellent local state primary school with excellent wrap around and then grammar. We have had an excellent state education. Few hiccups, here and there, but I doubt we would have gotten a better education in a private school.

What I am highlighting is that the choice of excellent state education is an immense privilege which many people simply do not get. And no, we did not “buy” into a catchment. We were part of a church and then sat the 11 plus. And no, we did not buy tutors in either. So at no point have I put my hands in my pocket.
The outrage is that every child deserves an excellent education. The problem is the state cannot ensure this - because most often, the excellence comes from the parent group supporting the school. That need not be financially, time, simple respect, buyin, valuing the school.

Demonising private school parents is completely misunderstanding education. It is a partnership between parents, child and school and a successful school, however financed, always relies on a strong community.

The "bells and whistles" are often the things that state SHOULD be offering: more PE + games and choice of options (lack of this is highly detrimental to the health and mental health of kids), and properly staffed arts/music/drama/choices of mfl etc.

Pure focus on academic results in state sector ie league tables mean that the kids who aren't academic get left behind + disengaged with education. All political parties are responsible and accountable for this eg Blair's 50% to uni target and then Gove's awful national curriculum.

@Araminta1003 apologies I thought I was replying to the poster I had commented on. Your response threw me

@twistyizzy we were talking about wrap around. Your point is an entirely different issue from the conversation I was having.

I am the poster who went for private for wraparound care and you seem to have missed that I did look for a childminder and was not able to find a vacancy with one that fitted with my work schedule - some did not work Tuesdays/Wednesdays, others finished too early, did not offer drop offs etc. Funnily enough, I don't need to convince anyone on MN that I did spend many hours looking into options for it to be true.

As far as 'bells and whistles' go, our private school does not have them. We don't have vast grounds, sports halls, swimming pools... It is a basic prep school which provides a good education; if anything, the state option had better grounds. The only perk we get over the state school is smaller class sizes as the state school also had specialist teachers for sports/drama/music - all funded by the extremely wealthy parents via the PTA. School trips were also just as good in both state equivalents. It would have been a far bigger privilege to take the state place but I would have shot my career in the foot in doing so.

The rhetoric that private school children are superior or too good for state is pure nonsense. We all have our own circumstances which led to our choices

It's not fair, but I don't see a solution. Maybe this influx of private school students into state schools will up the demand for after school clubs/wraparound and some will be found? Though I would imagine most ex-private school parents will be aiming for State Schools with good wraparound already.

DSs state school offers fantastic after school clubs - because there is demand and parents are willing to pay for them in order to work (LOTS of 2 parents working FT in my village) - In my experience the schools that don't offer the same/there is a lack of good wraparound care it's because the demand for it isn't there - sure some people may need it (and be, rightly, outraged it's not available) but presumably the school knows the demand is not high enough to put clubs in place/get external agencies in to run the clubs.

Absolutely agree - the head of our preferred primary was upfront that there was no wraparound because there just was not enough demand. The irony is the lack of demand is because majority of families had one parent working PT/not at all, predominantly because they are not paying school fees! It is a high achieving school funded by wealthy parents and extremely low FSM children. The school is absolutely full and there will be no private school influx in years to come. Maybe demographics may change slightly with people choosing not to start private but it won't be enough to justify starting the wraparound for a while and parents will have to make necessary adjustments

The second is also a good school but demand for wraparound outstrips supply and chances of us getting a place for all days in the first year were practically none based on speaking to parents of older children. This of course had an impact on childminder availability in the area.

At the time, we were disappointed but far from outraged, we just made the best choice for our circumstances and moved on. Accepted that my salary needs to pay fees for the primary years and anything left over is a bonus so I would get to consultant. No surprise we are outraged with a spite policy but fortunately are well over half way through the primary years so will suck it up and move to state for secondary

2 more closures to be announced taking it to 6 since 1st Jan. For those saying this is 'normal', no its not normal to have 6 closures announced in 8 days.

Around us, about half the schools have wrap around care, mostly serviced by 2 thirds party companies who collect the children from the school and walk them back to their premises. Onsite prevision is very rare.

Child minders and nannies for wrap around are like hens teeth, with each school only having 1 or 2 childminders for each school, places are fiercely contested, with some people paying go full time places just to get wrap around care.

When we moved our children from private school (one of the reasons we selected it was due to wrap around and holiday provision) we didn't have a choice of state schools but we are lucky that the school we were given does do onsite after school care.

Holiday provision locally is an absolute nightmare though, and what is available is only 10-3!

If you were having this problem then what on earth were all the other parents who didn’t go private doing? Surely there must have been a solution somehow - not everyone would have had the option to go private in the same situation as you.

“2 more closures to be announced taking it to 6 since 1st Jan. For those saying this is 'normal', no its not normal to have 6 closures announced in 8 days.”

@twistyizzy - does not surprise me at all. The precedent is Greece. I don’t think there was ever any doubt private schools would go bust. And I doubt the supporters of this policy are concerned about it either - it must have been one of the aims.

The difficult for ex private school parents is whether to go to another private school straight away or to wait for the state place. When the Councils are hardly making it easy for kids to be accommodated in state schools. And that is where I fundamentally disagree with this policy. It would only be fair if all private school kids went to the top of the state waiting lists given the deliberate Government interference.

No it's no surprise to anyone who knew anything about this beforehand. Some posters on here are trying to minimise the closures + therefore impact on the lives of the kids involved.
You are 100% correct, this is what happened in Greece and is why they had to abandon the policy. Unfortunately I don't see Labour doing that, ultimately they want indy schools to close and they don't care about the collateral damage.

It would only be fair if all private school kids went to the top of the state waiting lists given the deliberate Government interference.

Above kids in care or homeless who've been relocated to the other side of the country? Right-ho.

They are closing state primaries in London and making sure there is a plan for those kids well in advance in other state schools. Why the heck would this be any different?

There should be a process - private school alerts Council, Council ensures those kids are offered a state place promptly. Just like in the state sector for planned closures there. Come on - this is a civilised Western democracy, or is it?