Page 5 | Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2

ICouldBeVioletSky · 2025-01-01T20:05:18+00:00

Starting a second thread as the first one is still very busy, albeit it's veered off in a few directions... Original article [[https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100 https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100]]

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 23:17

It's hurting private schools as a fuck you to the rich

absolute hard disagree

Vatsallfolks · 01/01/2025 23:21

As someone who has three children in fairly well known private and one in a well known public school... I am incredulous at these posts constantly whining and whanging on about VAT ... just give it up !

You can either afford it or you can't. All this doom mongering about private school melt downs is just not something I recognise. I have not heard A SINGLE word about parents discussing fee increases or about withdrawing their kids and I pick up 3 days a week.

Look at the newspapers who print this guff. It's nonsense.

In case you have never looked at your children's school on companies house I suggest you do. These places are not 'charities' and have got away with it for far too long. They are businesses. They are businesses providing a luxury service. There is state provision. Which is available for all that wish it.

Businesses engaged in providing a luxury service pay VAT. End of. It's going to happen. So either pay or leave.

I will bet you all now that there will be absolutely no difference this time next year, to the normal number of private schools that open and fold each year. Just like there wasn't this year despite A LOT of heads up about VAT.

Here is an article not from a right wing mouthpiece. Reporting actual facts. This is my real life experience.

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/26/no-rise-private-school-closures-england-since-labour-vat-proposal-data

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 23:22

@Luddite26 I would have been behind that. I have to pay extra for bigger tights, not so much of an issue now but it was at school. I need bigger tights because I’m tall, I’m a shoe size 6 but someone who is a size 8 pays the same price, same for clothes but not tights.

NordicwithTeen · 01/01/2025 23:24

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:43

One of our local schools has implemented 2 rounds of redundancies so that they can swallow the cost. If they are all doing this to varying extents that could be thousands out of work on benefits, for example?

@NordicwithTeen firstly this would be nowhere near the thousands. Secondly there are a lot of state schools that need teachers. Win all round. Unless they don’t actually have a teaching qualification which many private school teachers don’t have…..

They've largely scaled back on the older workforce who were going to retire soon, extra maintenance people, housemistress for boarding, etc. Not really the prime employees for state schools. Besides, many private school teachers have escaped traumatic experiences in state and would do other work rather than return. If this school has let 20 ppl go (roughly) I don't see how over 3k schools it couldn't be in the thousands looking for work.

Ifyouarehappyandyouknowitshout · 01/01/2025 23:27

@Vatsallfolks absolutely agree. It’s just being done for the wrong reasons which means that when those in the system close ranks people will get annoyed as it’s supposed to make things better for the state system. Except it won’t because whilst it won’t affect those who pay the fees, they won’t want to share.

nearlylovemyusername · 01/01/2025 23:28

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:56

i am just pointing out that it’s not the silver bullet you think.

but it’s a start toward banishing inequality. And everything has a start @Ifyouarehappyandyouknowitshout

Banishing inequality??? are you for real?

So borderline parents who wanted to invest a 350-500k per child in private schooling will now hand this money over to them instead (cash, housing etc). They won't spend it on upgrade of lifestyle.

Most of unis, at least Russel group ones, openly prioritise state educated kids, so they had a great chance of competing at this level. Now wealthy (even if borderline) and deprived ones are equally state educated so equal in terms of uni admissions, but former still have tutoring support and cultural capital and get life changing cash injection which they wouldn't have otherwise as spend on school fees.

Banishing inequality??

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 23:30

Bursaries will still exist, ime they are used for excellent candidates which many schools will still want.

Luddite26 · 01/01/2025 23:31

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 23:22

@Luddite26 I would have been behind that. I have to pay extra for bigger tights, not so much of an issue now but it was at school. I need bigger tights because I’m tall, I’m a shoe size 6 but someone who is a size 8 pays the same price, same for clothes but not tights.

Thankyou. Some families are paying way more than others and nobody bats an eyelid.

NordicwithTeen · 01/01/2025 23:31

@vatsallfolks is an example of the super rich who it won't affect. Those schools won't be in trouble. Well done Labour, middle classes were getting too tall in the poppy field...

Kittiwakeup · 01/01/2025 23:31

nearlylovemyusername · 01/01/2025 23:28

Banishing inequality??? are you for real?

So borderline parents who wanted to invest a 350-500k per child in private schooling will now hand this money over to them instead (cash, housing etc). They won't spend it on upgrade of lifestyle.

Most of unis, at least Russel group ones, openly prioritise state educated kids, so they had a great chance of competing at this level. Now wealthy (even if borderline) and deprived ones are equally state educated so equal in terms of uni admissions, but former still have tutoring support and cultural capital and get life changing cash injection which they wouldn't have otherwise as spend on school fees.

Banishing inequality??

Show quote history

It is not true that RG universities openly prioritise state educated DC. That is not how widening participation works.

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 23:34

So borderline parents who wanted to invest a 350-500k per child in private schooling will now hand this money over to them instead (cash, housing etc). They won't spend it on upgrade of lifestyle.

I don’t recognise this, the private school families I know already help their dc onto the ladder & often use tutoring. And this ignores the fact there are plenty of dc from wealthy families who already attend state school, maybe it’s a location thing.

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 23:34

Well done Labour, middle classes were getting too tall in the poppy field...

What did the Tories do for the middle classes?

Applepoop · 01/01/2025 23:35

Luddite26 · 01/01/2025 23:15

In 2009 my DD2 started secondary school and I had to pay 20% more for her uniform than others in the queue for pe kits.
I started up a campaign called Taxed for being tall. Her genes made her at age 10 wear clothes for 15 year olds where VAT is charged. Nobody gave a shit MP's, Gordon Brown other parents etc
It was picked up by an accountancy magazine who agreed with me that we were literally getting taxed for being tall. I'm sure many reading this don't give a shit even though that meant I paid up to £40 more than others of the same age.

My thoughts on the VAT on school fees is get it paid. The state school system is a mess.

My DD is 6ft2in. I have long thought this is a very unfair issue - not just with clothing, but with tall boys over 6ft6in, having to pay for extra leg room/bigger seats on planes. The fact is that tall people are in a minority and therefore nobody really cares. I actually think this is very similar to the govt's attitude to most things. "Small number affected" is used as justification for a lot of awful policies.

Original poster

ICouldBeVioletSky · 01/01/2025 23:40

Undrugged · 01/01/2025 23:02

Very striking simultaneity in new mumsnet threads covering this subject, and new press stories appearing over the last 24 hours on the same: No doubt it’s just regular parents switching back on after the Christmas break 😏

Rumbled!!

That’s right, I’m a Tory activist/Daily Mail hack/Russian bot/all of the above.

This afternoon I had a lull in posting while I took my kids to a climbing centre, and tomorrow I’ll be back to the grindstone, albeit working from home for the day.

I do hope the generative AI model that wrote all the above sounds reasonably convincing (prompt: “write in the style of a regular parent switching back on after the Christmas break”).

I’ll be in trouble with Kemi/my editor/President Putin if not.

🙄

OP posts:

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 23:41

😆

Ubertomusic · 01/01/2025 23:43

mynamechangemyrules · 01/01/2025 22:27

I keep coming on these threads to say:
I am leaving private education as a teacher because the private sector in the UK is bewilderingly shit! They're selling absolute fluff to people, via marketing teams who get paid most of their budget and don't have a scooby about education.

I assumed it would be like the rest of the world where you get the highest quality teachers and resources for your money, but it just isn't true here. The schools I have worked with and in here in the UK are trading on their picturesque buildings and grounds/ colonial or traditional vibes plus maybe a couple of niche facilities or subjects. I'd love to see an eyes wide open assessment of them. Send in Ofsted not the feeble ISI and watch them all coming out as RI. That'll shut them down faster than any VAT costs.

It looks like you're not very familiar with private schools even here let alone the rest of the world.

Boohoo76 · 01/01/2025 23:44

Vatsallfolks · 01/01/2025 23:21

As someone who has three children in fairly well known private and one in a well known public school... I am incredulous at these posts constantly whining and whanging on about VAT ... just give it up !

You can either afford it or you can't. All this doom mongering about private school melt downs is just not something I recognise. I have not heard A SINGLE word about parents discussing fee increases or about withdrawing their kids and I pick up 3 days a week.

Look at the newspapers who print this guff. It's nonsense.

In case you have never looked at your children's school on companies house I suggest you do. These places are not 'charities' and have got away with it for far too long. They are businesses. They are businesses providing a luxury service. There is state provision. Which is available for all that wish it.

Businesses engaged in providing a luxury service pay VAT. End of. It's going to happen. So either pay or leave.

I will bet you all now that there will be absolutely no difference this time next year, to the normal number of private schools that open and fold each year. Just like there wasn't this year despite A LOT of heads up about VAT.

Here is an article not from a right wing mouthpiece. Reporting actual facts. This is my real life experience.

www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/26/no-rise-private-school-closures-england-since-labour-vat-proposal-data

Well my DC goes to a large, highly regarded private school in the SE and I have heard lots of complaints from other parents.

You also seem a little confused. It’s not the school paying the VAT, it’s the parents.

Also VAT is not by definition a luxury tax and businesses sell lots of “luxury” goods and services without having to charge VAT.

Ubertomusic · 02/01/2025 00:29

nearlylovemyusername · 01/01/2025 23:28

Banishing inequality??? are you for real?

So borderline parents who wanted to invest a 350-500k per child in private schooling will now hand this money over to them instead (cash, housing etc). They won't spend it on upgrade of lifestyle.

Most of unis, at least Russel group ones, openly prioritise state educated kids, so they had a great chance of competing at this level. Now wealthy (even if borderline) and deprived ones are equally state educated so equal in terms of uni admissions, but former still have tutoring support and cultural capital and get life changing cash injection which they wouldn't have otherwise as spend on school fees.

Banishing inequality??

Show quote history

I find "banishing inequality" slogan absolutely hilarious. With Eton at al standing blissfully unaffected I just cannot get it how on earth people can continue repeating this nonsense 🤣🤦‍♀️

Ubertomusic · 02/01/2025 00:37

NordicwithTeen · 01/01/2025 23:31

@vatsallfolks is an example of the super rich who it won't affect. Those schools won't be in trouble. Well done Labour, middle classes were getting too tall in the poppy field...

Absolutely this 😁
"I haven't heard any discussions"... 🤦‍♀️

Ubertomusic · 02/01/2025 00:42

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 23:34

Well done Labour, middle classes were getting too tall in the poppy field...

What did the Tories do for the middle classes?

Nothing. MC are being ripped off right, left and centre.

DearGoldBee · 02/01/2025 01:00

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:18

Society is changing full stop. Place of education is becoming more and more irrelevant - spotting talent and potential is more important for companies. I’m sorry private school parents but the majority of these schools just aren’t worth it now - you can’t buy your way to success anymore.

Edited

You clearly don't understand the diverse benefits of independent schooling - buying success isn't the point.

LongDarkTeatime · 02/01/2025 01:06

Well I can’t get to sleep worrying about my DC.
We’d never even thought about going private.
In Yr 7 2 things happened, they got a diagnosis of ASD (high functioning) and they were bullied out of their High School. We had to move them and the only option with spaces was private. Like many parents of kids with SEND the difference was a literal life saver for them. But to fund this we’ve had to give up every extra eg our 16yr old car is running on prayer power, family holidays are a distant memory, we’ve taken on as much work as we can possibly do. But the rushed into of VAT is too much.
Not sure how we’re going to pay to keep DC at school in this GCSE year. Can you imagine how a mid-exam move would effect a kid with ASD?!
Even if you believe VAT on education is right, why is it OK to delay VAT for vapes by 2 yrs but bring this in immediately?? PLEASE tell me why as I sit here worried for my child.

Diomi · 02/01/2025 01:10

mynamechangemyrules · 01/01/2025 22:27

I keep coming on these threads to say:
I am leaving private education as a teacher because the private sector in the UK is bewilderingly shit! They're selling absolute fluff to people, via marketing teams who get paid most of their budget and don't have a scooby about education.

I assumed it would be like the rest of the world where you get the highest quality teachers and resources for your money, but it just isn't true here. The schools I have worked with and in here in the UK are trading on their picturesque buildings and grounds/ colonial or traditional vibes plus maybe a couple of niche facilities or subjects. I'd love to see an eyes wide open assessment of them. Send in Ofsted not the feeble ISI and watch them all coming out as RI. That'll shut them down faster than any VAT costs.

I’ve been through Ofsted and ISI inspections and they are pretty similar. The write up for the ISI is a bit vaguer but the process seemed much the same to me. ISI was slightly more rigorous with our dept.

Strikeoutnow · 02/01/2025 01:25

Not sure how we’re going to pay to keep DC at school in this GCSE year. Can you imagine how a mid-exam move would effect a kid with ASD?!

There’s no way I would move any child a few months before their GCSEs, have you asked the school about a payment plan @LongDarkTeatime & pay the VAT across a few months after they leave? After they finish this summer you won’t be paying fees so if it was me I would borrow the money. Can you access a low interest cc? Or a small loan, how much is the additional VAT? Has the school got a hardship fund?

I agree VAT for vapes should happen ASAP.

IWantToGetOffHelp · 02/01/2025 01:36

My child went to private prep and was going to stay on for secondary. Not any more! She’s guaranteed a place at the local grammar with her 11 plus score so she will go there, probably depriving someone less well off of a place. I’ve stopped working apart from a few hours a week to keep my earnings below the tax threshold when I was previously a high earner. My DH has an appointment next week to get his affairs in order and move as much as he can to lessen his tax burden. We happily paid our fair share of tax - not any more!!