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Education

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Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2

990 replies

ICouldBeVioletSky · 01/01/2025 20:05

Starting a second thread as the first one is still very busy, albeit it's veered off in a few directions...

Original article

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:09

Yes. As someone who uses those private schools I find it ridiculous. Schools like the one we use won’t be affected (old public school) and all we are doing is closing ranks. Plus, if I pay as much as I do now for my three then those who want bursaries can sod off.

beautiful @Ifyouarehappyandyouknowitshout

twistyizzy · 01/01/2025 22:10

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:05

Brilliant news. I’m sorry a few kids will have disruption but the collapse of the private school system will benefit the 93% of children who don’t attend. Bravo!

How?
Seeing as the cost to recruit the mythical extra 6,500 teachers, pay for teachers would have to rise 10% a year for the next two years to attract new entrants. So it’s a £5 billion rise in the overall teachers’ pay bill to make 6,500 extra possible.
40 000 teachers left the profession last year. 6500 doesn't touch the sides.

As VAT will only bring in approx 0.5-1 billion now (after all the exemptions, claim back + increase in number leaving) please explain how it helps state schools?

Sasskitty · 01/01/2025 22:10

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:05

Brilliant news. I’m sorry a few kids will have disruption but the collapse of the private school system will benefit the 93% of children who don’t attend. Bravo!

Bless. The ‘private school system’ isn’t collapsing. The private education sector isn’t ending. Headlines will be headlines.. they do their job..

The education gap is getting wider, as a direct result of Labour’s unhinged envy.

Boohoo76 · 01/01/2025 22:10

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:07

How will Labour foster ambition and drive and growth with a growth mindset if they inflict damaging policies on the DC of ambitious people?

and there you have it. The superior mindset in action. That most people want to stamp out. Money does not equal ambition. @Araminta1003

Edited

You’re assuming that the person making that comment is a private school parent.

NiftyTraybake · 01/01/2025 22:12

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 22:05

@NiftyTraybake well clearly I was being facetious but it wasn’t me who mentioned ambitious parents

Which is fair enough, but this is a policy which won't affect those who send their kids to Eton or Harrow or any of the other ultra-elitist private schools. If you've got that kind of money then 20% here or there means nothing, and they will doubtless already have worked out ways of paying via trust or in advance.

The squeezed middle class are the ones that are going to be screwed over. We see in this thread people gloating that it doesn't affect 93% of the country, but moving 93% of people going to state to 95% doesn't improve equality - it just widens the gap between the two.

Of course it is politically popular, as is any policy that taxes other people. Crabs in a bucket, as above.

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 22:13

All ambitious parents do for their DC what they can within their means. That can be private education, moving into a good catchment, just sitting and supporting them with homework, reading and talking to them etc., helping them find good revision sites- it does not matter what form it takes.

Agree

Araminta1003 · 01/01/2025 22:13

Firstly, I am a state school parent and secondly, I explained very clearly what I meant by ambitious parents and I never said that precludes the majority of state school parents. However, it’s a given that the majority of private school parents are ambitious because they have decided consciously to invest significant amounts in their DC. And it appears this Labour Government does not like that, for whatever reason. And yes, I find it so anomalous that a Western Government would do that and I am concerned what they might do as regards the church state and grammar schools my DC attend or attended. If they are crazy to do this, what next?!

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:14

This had really been changing - CV blind interviews, a conscious effort to market to graduate recruits at a wide range of universities including non-Russell Group at the City Law firm where I work.
I wonder if this will last now that private school parents are being targeted as a cash cow to milk, to pay for the education of others including millionaires who use state schools?

hahahaha people will really try any angle won’t they? Are you seriously positing, ‘If you don’t allow us tax free private school then we won’t be compassionate and allow the poor state dwellers into the top jobs.’

I work in a top company too (not law) and we realise that talent isn’t dependent on paid education which is why we recruit from all areas. And long may it continue

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:18

Society is changing full stop. Place of education is becoming more and more irrelevant - spotting talent and potential is more important for companies. I’m sorry private school parents but the majority of these schools just aren’t worth it now - you can’t buy your way to success anymore.

twistyizzy · 01/01/2025 22:19

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:18

Society is changing full stop. Place of education is becoming more and more irrelevant - spotting talent and potential is more important for companies. I’m sorry private school parents but the majority of these schools just aren’t worth it now - you can’t buy your way to success anymore.

Edited

If you think that's the reason parents choose indy then you really don't understand
Are you also saying that kids at indy schools don't have what it takes naturally?

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:20

@twistyizzy good response

I’ve made the choice so pretty sure I know all the reasons. And I decided I’m not happy to contribute to continued class inequality

Kittiwakeup · 01/01/2025 22:22

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 21:48

My wife and I are both doctors and can't afford the increase. Guess we're just not ambitious enough.

Perhaps you need to take in some ironing?

Hope you remember that when you need your quadruple bypass or whatever. Not everything is measured in £££. Absolutely no need.

twistyizzy · 01/01/2025 22:23

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:20

@twistyizzy good response

I’ve made the choice so pretty sure I know all the reasons. And I decided I’m not happy to contribute to continued class inequality

Actually the biggest factor in social mobility/inequality is whether you come from a 2 parent home. What education you had is around #8.
Your parents are the biggest factor, including the education level of your mother.
The elephant in the room is that quite simply there is a significant minority of parents who don't value education and no matter how hard you attack indy schools, you won't change that.

twistyizzy · 01/01/2025 22:24

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:20

@twistyizzy good response

I’ve made the choice so pretty sure I know all the reasons. And I decided I’m not happy to contribute to continued class inequality

You only know your own reasons, you can't speak for the reasons of all parents.

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 22:24

@NiftyTraybake yet you accused me of gloating which I have not done.

Which is fair enough, but this is a policy which won't affect those who send their kids to Eton or Harrow or any of the other ultra-elitist private schools.

I haven’t said it will but surely you can understand why the majority of the public don’t care about this point? They are already priced out so I’m not sure why they would be that bothered about those newly priced out. The argument appears to be “now that I cannot afford private school I care about elitism”, it’s just a bit of a hard sell to the masses.

The squeezed middle class are the ones that are going to be screwed over.

The squeezed middle have been getting screwed over for years, wage stagnation, frozen income tax bands, less generous pension schemes, etc. And many have been priced out way before VAT due to the soaring increases in fees.

but moving 93% of people going to state to 95% doesn't improve equality - it just widens the gap between the two.

Private schools will still exist so this goes back to my earlier point. It wasn’t an issue when parents were on the right side of the gap but now they are on the wrong side there’s an issue with equality.

Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:26

Your parents are the biggest factor, including the education level of your mother.
The elephant in the room is that quite simply there is a significant minority of parents who don't value education and no matter how hard you attack indy schools, you won't change that

what’s that got to do with the price of fish, as they say? Total tangent. I disagree with tiered education. Therefore I support its ending. The other issues are exactly that, other issues.

TaupePanda · 01/01/2025 22:26

I support the VAT increase in theory but not the way its been inplemented, which seems very unstructured. The issue is that the ideology used to justify the VAT change is wrong. The likelihood that this change will drag up standards for all is terrible logic - I think the opposite will be more likely. The elite will continue to go to private schools but these will be even more exclusive. And those who might otherwise go to private will close ranks just as much as any cohort - it's a discussion in my child's year one parent group already. Many would have sent their children to private school - there are 9 doctors, 4 lawyers and 5 MDs / CEOs in the class. The conversations are all that we all live in the catchment for a good local state that also stretches to catch the 'other side' - basically a main road, on which one side sits houses and the other some tower blocks. As the crow flies, if all the kids who might have gone to private go to the comp, the nice side is closest to the nice school and would remain within the catchment if the boundary got smaller. The other kids would go to the other comp which performs much worse. The richer parents will invest in extra curricular etc... so, people with more money will get a better performing school and they'll save fees. This isn't unique, in fact it's already pretty common for the best states to be in wealthier areas. It's just state funded tiered education really

mynamechangemyrules · 01/01/2025 22:27

I keep coming on these threads to say:
I am leaving private education as a teacher because the private sector in the UK is bewilderingly shit! They're selling absolute fluff to people, via marketing teams who get paid most of their budget and don't have a scooby about education.

I assumed it would be like the rest of the world where you get the highest quality teachers and resources for your money, but it just isn't true here. The schools I have worked with and in here in the UK are trading on their picturesque buildings and grounds/ colonial or traditional vibes plus maybe a couple of niche facilities or subjects. I'd love to see an eyes wide open assessment of them. Send in Ofsted not the feeble ISI and watch them all coming out as RI. That'll shut them down faster than any VAT costs.

Ifyouarehappyandyouknowitshout · 01/01/2025 22:27

@Jaimenotjamie My children aren’t a social experiment. Where they are they get the best rounded experience and it will set them up.

NiftyTraybake · 01/01/2025 22:28

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 22:24

@NiftyTraybake yet you accused me of gloating which I have not done.

Which is fair enough, but this is a policy which won't affect those who send their kids to Eton or Harrow or any of the other ultra-elitist private schools.

I haven’t said it will but surely you can understand why the majority of the public don’t care about this point? They are already priced out so I’m not sure why they would be that bothered about those newly priced out. The argument appears to be “now that I cannot afford private school I care about elitism”, it’s just a bit of a hard sell to the masses.

The squeezed middle class are the ones that are going to be screwed over.

The squeezed middle have been getting screwed over for years, wage stagnation, frozen income tax bands, less generous pension schemes, etc. And many have been priced out way before VAT due to the soaring increases in fees.

but moving 93% of people going to state to 95% doesn't improve equality - it just widens the gap between the two.

Private schools will still exist so this goes back to my earlier point. It wasn’t an issue when parents were on the right side of the gap but now they are on the wrong side there’s an issue with equality.

Of course the majority don't care. They don't see it as affecting them at all and it also drags the poshos into the mud - great! However, most using private schooling other than for SEN kids aren't sending their kids to the ultra-elite places where networking is the thing, and I suspect are just trying to get some education without kids who don't want to learn and just disrupt the class.

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 22:28

Hope you remember that when you need your quadruple bypass or whatever. Not everything is measured in £££. Absolutely no need.

No need for what? To make a facetious comment in response to a stupid post about ambitious parents. But I’ll be ok, I’m from a medical family.

Barbadossunset · 01/01/2025 22:29

@Jaimenotjamie are you going to answer my question as to how abolishing private schools would benefit the 93% of children?

ICouldBeVioletSky · 01/01/2025 22:29

As on the original thread, there are a lot of posters who either misunderstand or plain misrepresent the views of those who oppose VAT. In the genuine hope of informing the debate, I've copied a post by @catsruletheworldforever which expresses how I think many of us feel (but puts it more eloquently than I ever could):

"My children do not go to private school and I am strongly against this policy. I am confident that it will make zero difference to the quality of state school provision, which in many instances is of good quality.

I am against VAT on the provision of education. Education is for the benefit of all society. The EU does not charge VAT on education, as their policy of fiscal neutrality prohibits treating similar services differently for VAT purposes.
i am against economic policy causing children unnecessary distress for zero gain.

Why was this policy brought in, in the middle of an academic year? Vindictive and outrageous to target children in this way. Other major taxation changes, are given plenty of notice so that organisations can bring in the changes.

i am against groups being pitted against each other by government. It’s a smokescreen well used by the powerful. Pit the plebs against each other and they won’t pay as much attention to the woeful job government is doing. The inadequate funding of state education is entirely the responsibility of our government. It is not the responsibility of parents who for various reasons have decided to pay for educating their own children. I see no good reason, why fee paying parents should be punitively taxed by the state when, they are actually assisting the state - by reducing the burden on the overall tax payer.

i am for transparency in government, rather than being spoken to in soundbites as if I had limited capacity to understand.

I would have appreciated a proper analysis of core areas that required further funding and realistic proposals about how this could be funded. It will take billions to sort out SEN provision, but I have heard nothing about this. This government is pretending to do something BIG with this policy to hide, that they are doing virtually nothing.

i am for taxing areas of life that have a negative impact on society, such as gambling. Why is there no VAT on gambling?

Our country is poorer in the aftermath of Brexit and this is projected to continue. We need radical ideas about how to either raise more money (increase income tax? Historically this was not considered radical). Or radical ideas on how to cut the costs of government? Less provided by NHS? Incentivise parents to use private school?! Obviously Labour would not do the latter, but many countries do, in recognition that it lessens the burden on the state.

in general I am in support of the state funding less, individuals who can and business funding more - within reason. I therefore cannot understand putting VAT on education for the first time. A policy that uses economic levers to actively push tax payers who had chosen to fund their own child’s education back into state education, where the government has to fund it. Where everyone else has to fund it! Total nonsense."

OP posts:
Jaimenotjamie · 01/01/2025 22:29

Spot on @Strikeoutnow. Suddenly we have crusaders for fairness fighting for a totally and utterly unfair system. If you have the money, to send your kids private and you want to, go for it. If you don’t, then tough shit, that’s the way it is for 93% of parents!!

And really why should anyone else care? For a minute, just think and list some reasons, why?

Strikeoutnow · 01/01/2025 22:29

However, most using private schooling other than for SEN kids aren't sending their kids to the ultra-elite places where networking is the thing, and I suspect are just trying to get some education without kids who don't want to learn and just disrupt the class.

So are you arguing that VAT is ok for those attending ultra-elite places?

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