The councils need to find spaces for all children!!

[HooverIsAlwaysBroken]

https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/surrey-runs-out-of-state-school-places-for-private-pupils-as-vat-raid-bites/?amp

I am relieved to see that the Surrey is also looking at options to expand class sizes and use transportation to take children to other areas. They really need to get their act together quickly.

all children has a right to state education.

Well how do you think house prices near the best state schools work? People buy unfair advantages in many ways. Buying advantage with your expensive house location is how it’s gonna be working now.

@HealthRobinsonCrusoe surely you aren’t suggesting that you’ve never done anything to give your child an advantage over others?

No extracurricular museum trips that others can’t afford, holidays that expose your child to new cultures, educational materials and books that others can’t afford, sports equipment and lessons, music lessons, tutors for grammar school…

And house purchases involve tax

Their children aren't buying advantage. The parents are. If you don't like that, you should check your own privilege and absolutely stop buying your children nice clothes, good food, shoes that fit. They mustn't have Christmas presents for goodness sake. It's terrible because so many children don't have any. How dare you get your children something nice that you wished you had as a child. Your children mustn't have any of that.

If you think that's ridiculous then maybe you can check your own hypocrisy instead.

No... Private school is bad for society

I'm sorry it ever existed but not sorry it's being restricted

No, not really. Substandard, underfunded education is bad for society. The private sector in the UK really only exists because the current state offering is so dire and has been cut to a skeleton over time that for many, they are choosing it to make a better life for their children. It wasn't in the past - in fact British education used to set the global standard. It doesn't now, except for remaining bits of the private sector. (The fucking Tories are to blame for a lot of this decimation).

Education is a strange thing - ultimately it really is a tool for propaganda for a country's society as a whole: what values, information and ideas do we want to teach our younger generations? What bits of history will glorify us for them, how will we approach maths, scientific knowledge, what pieces of literary heritage will we teach them, that will showcase the best of who we are? What do we expect them to know?

I used to glorify state education too as it's so important to have an educated engaged and skilled population. But you know what? I'm currently scared - terrified even - of what a 100 % state education could actually be: the curriculum is set by the government of the day. Here you are gloating that alternate education will go out of business and everyone must be state school only as your preferred political party is in power.

But what if... Next time around the Other Guys win (like Reform or whoever). They believe something different entirely about what education is: their versions of history are the only ones taught, or perhaps they are christofascist (like in some parts of the US, my other country of citizenship). Perhaps they don't even believe women should be educated adequately as Andrew fucking Tate is the new education secretary. I don't know.

But in reducing or eliminating educational choice (via excessive taxation that eliminates alternative education providers) for yourself and everyone else, you open that door.

Can you show me the data,because I most up to date research into social mobility the top indicator was coming from a 2 parent family. Indy schools came around #8 on the list.
You may THINK they perpetuate inequality but that doesn't make it so.

@HealthRobinsonCrusoe it'll just drive a further gap and the policy you support won't even bring in extra funding

It'll result in a worsening state sector and disruption to children's education. Why would people want that

@LetItGo99 very valid point. I am pretty sad at the state of state education kids not being able to eat with cutlery starting school not toilet trained lack of critical thinking. It is a proper race to the bottom a lowering of standards it’s complete politics of envy

Children’s inability to use cutlery or toilet trained when starting school is nothing to do with state schools and everything to do with poor parenting.

Can you explain what you mean by lack of critical thinking - children’s or teachers?

@LittleBearPad children I have t been impressed I’m glad my son is out the other side

@strawberrybubblegum Why on earth do you expect me to pay more towards your children's school than you do?!
I already pay the same amount.

Completely agree. I am a lower rate tax payer. We entered the private system in the first place because the state system couldn’t provide an education for my disabled DS1. Until we were able to convince the LA that he needed to be in a special school - which took us several years - we had a choice of either me leaving my job and home schooling him, or sending him to private school. He left school with two GCSEs and two Functional Skills qualifications, so hardly buying privilege - just buying a chance at an education that the state system didn’t offer.

DS2 is now in Y12. He’s a carer, he has a very complicated home life, and he does a specific hobby to a very high standard which is available at his private school. He hopes it will be his career. If he’d been lower down the school we’d have had to remove him due to VAT. My mum helps with fees.

We won’t be going on holiday this year or next year. Obviously large numbers of UK families can’t afford to go on holiday, but I am comparing my family here with those posters who are higher rate tax payers who have never needed to use the private system. Yes, for us it was a need. To quote strawberrybubblegum, “Why on earth do you expect me to pay more towards your children's school than you
do?! I already pay the same amount.”

Having a disabled child and not being offered state school provision for him was not our choice.

It genuinely puzzles me why, on these threads, so many of us talk about our lived experiences and yet we are told by the fans of this VAT policy that we are wrong. How do you know that our lived experiences are wrong? Why do you care?

OMG get over yourselves, state schools are fine, and there are places - even in the highly desirable oversubscribed ones. I got a phone call about a place a few month into the first term this year. If you are so wealthy you could afford around 20k a year in school fees (but not wealthy enough to pay 25k) I'm sure you can move to a place near a good state school, no problem.

@localnotail thats the whole point though? We can buy into the best state school and grammar catchments. Lots of friends are already looking at buying into grammar catchments just incase. It pushes house prices up and poorer children out - widening inequality.

For what it's worth I do not agree with this policy.

But the housing analogy only takes us so far. It does miss the improved experience and outcomes for the child. I know someone has said that independent school doesn't improve outcomes that much but if it is true that private schools are often used for children due to their special needs then a child achieving 2 GCSEs at grade C could be a huge improvement on failing them all.

Another analogy could be if parents were able to pay for private cancer treatment for their child leading to a situation where rich people that went private their children had an 80% survival rate and people that went NHS had a 50% survival rate. This then makes more sense to tax the private health users with the belief that although that would mean a few more kids would have to go NHS over time the extra resources to the NHS closed that gap to 60% survival, then 70% and so on until the survival rates were similar.

I think the above analogy shows the principle on which the policy is based but pragmatically I don't think the policy will work in this way.

In both analogies if enough people drop out of paying privately the tax taken is wiped out by the extra people using the free system. So more kids get the 50% survival rate (not the 80%) but there is no improvement on this rate as any extra money is only paying for more kids and not for an improvement in the service.

I also think as less people choose to educate privately - both existing students and those that would have been starting private school but don't their families will be much more cash rich and will be much more likely to not work overtime/go part time and retire early affecting overall tax take and productivity.

The decision not to educate privately won't just be based on the VAT but the direction of travel being shown by the Government as anti private school. Parents won't know when the next policy of detriment to their kids will occur. We already hear that some universities apply a greater weighting to grades of kids from state school/ certain postcodes? So it seems it is already legal to discriminate against kids from private school?

The decision to not send kids to private is like the decision to not be a landlord/sell your rental property. It's not necessarily one policy that clinches it just small change after small change to make being a landlord less attractive and a clear anti landlord direction of travel so you know that things will only get worse and get out.

Our son is in Y11 so wouldn't move him anyway but I know that all Secondaries in my LEA are currently full

Well I kind of doubt it "widens inequality" - as it is quite shocking already. But you still have a chance to get into a good state school - like in my case, even if I live outside of catchment. You can appeal, you can fight for your child getting a place. This isn't a case with private schools.

In my view, all private schools do is get a leg up for kids who's parents have money - which is fine, such as life. But I kind of finding distasteful when private school parents say things like "now I have to homeschool my kids as they are depraved of education" - erm, you do realise how snobby, elitist and nasty you sound? You do realise there is a huge percentage of the population who would would neve be able to send their children to private school, even if they had to stop eating and live in a cardboard box? Their children have to make do with "no education" in state schools. The same schools that would massively benefit from additional funding via taxes. Surely this would address inequality?

The only parents I can relate to is the parents of privately educated SEN children, but again - the reason SEN is so poor in state schools is purely down to the lack of funding, courtesy of 14 years of Tory. I remember what the education was under Labour - tonnes of funding for schools and academies, funding for sport, arts and drama, new facilities built for SEN, sure start centres, children centres, etc. Where is it all now? So all this Labour bashing by people who would actually benefit from more taxes and more funding for schools is really weird to me.

@localnotail what you remember is what Education was when our economy was strong. Tony Blair caught a ride on a period of economic growth.

Have a look at the graphs I've attached on Education spending and GDP over time.

Education spending per child did rise hugely between 2003 and 2010 (Labour). GDP rose steeply too... until the 2008 crash.

Education spending actually barely dipped between 2010 and 2020 (Conservative). I'd suggest that a slight drop was fairly reasonable given the GDP drop after the 2008 crash. GDP only got back to 2008 level in 2013 - and Education spending growth had continued rising under Labour until 2010, so there was some catching up for GDP to do.

Education spending has at no point gone below the 2003 level in real terms, ie even allowing for inflation. It has easily held its own against our GDP.

There was actually another big spending boost the last 3 years (Conservative) despite GDP falling through the floor.

Education spending per child is 20% higher now than it was in 2003 in real terms.

GDP has only gone up 10% in real terms.

Maybe student needs have changed - or certainly how we cater for them. Kids seem less ready for school.

But in the end, if we want more money for education, our economy needs to grow. It really is that simple.

How do you think Labour are doing at that?

Here's a graph of our GDP per person. You'll notice that it's fluctuated - but not really risen - for the last 20 years.

We can't continue to have ever-increasing public spending - which if you actually look at the numbers instead of listening to the rhetoric, we have had, even under the Conservatives - unless we also increase our GDP.

@strawberrybubblegum fantastic information

So far Labour have managed to shrink the economy going by latest figures. Unexpectedly negative after better than expected first half of the year

Public sector services will struggle if they can't turn that around

Borrowing is already maxed out

Looking at pp I suppose Labour shrinking the economy will be new information rather than relying on the last Labour gov

Labour have been in power mere months, after inheriting a country with screwed up economy - Tory rule, Covid, Brexit, war in Ukraine - but mainly, Tory rule - and they are already being bashed because what? They have not made things better as soon as they came to power?

Ok, the economy was strong during Bair years - but Tories did not help, all the education funding, as well as healthcare funding, went first as soon as they came to power - first thing Gove did was closing "Building Schools for the Future" - and not replacing it with anything apart from substandard unregulated Free Schools. And the amounts wasted no Brexit, on fake contracts for Boris's mates and mistresses during Covid, on other useless shit benefitting only the very wealthy?

Taxes are tough, but its the only way to get money this country needs. Money have to come from somewhere. Taxing something that most people considered a luxury is fine by me. Or do you believe in Liz Truss maths? Less taxes/ more spending and all will be well?

So you didn't bother looking at the actual numbers then?

Taxes are tough, but its the only way to get money this country needs

Usually it's pp on here advocating taxes for other people but the problem is for Labour is their policies having an impact on growth

Unexpected shrinking in October to start