Business rates on private schools

[liverpudcounsel]

Lots of threads on VAT on private schools, which I don’t have a strong opinion on.

I have not seen much information or views on business rates, which has come up on the budget today; new legislation to remove their business rates relief from April 2025 which means loss of charitable status for private schools.

Anyone know much more specifically about this? Just curious. Along with the employer VAT increases, and VAT on fees is this budget going to blow a hole in the finances of these schools?

Less ridiculous, crass, and abhorent than your argument that there are grades of necessity.

If a child's educational needs cannot be met in the state system then an alternative is a necessity - not a choice.

I think you have misunderstood my point. Of course there is a range of disability and her son's needs are greater than someone's child with milder SEN. My issue is that she has single handedly decided that anyone that wants to meet their SEN child's needs is acting out of choice.

Ultimately most parents simply want their children's needs met. This is particularly true for parents of disabled children that find it harder to achieve this with standard state provision and require additional support. There is a massive grey area as far as the state is concerned where a child isn't disabled enough to qualify for the same level of support as the poster's son but the child cannot cope in a large school with overstretched SEN resource. Lots of parents feel compelled to move their children to private schools to get their child's basic needs met, sacrifice so much to afford this and then get told that they have made a choice to do this and therefore should be taxed and treated as if they have just bought a designer handbag. It isn't a real choice if the only other option available to parents is inadequate and poses a very real threat to the long term prospects of their child. To pretend otherwise is nasty and disingenuous!

Can I ask you: how much impact do you think it will have on any state school attending child for their school to have, on average, one third of an extra teacher?

Do you feel this would represent a good result delivered by Labour and a significant improvement on the achievements of the Tories (who I agree were shockingly poor when it comes to education and many other things, FWIW)?

And as to state educated SEN children - do you think this policy will improve their lot, when inevitably the numbers requiring state SEN provision now increase as people are forced to withdraw from independent schools?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - I would much rather pay an extra penny in income tax (higher/additional rate) so that state SEN and general state education can be improved. As a parent whose kids are currently in state education but hopefully going to independent secondary schools I would expect extra income tax to cost me more. But it would be fairer and much much more effective.

The VAT policy will do nothing to improve state education, the only effect will be to cause huge disruption and distress to children who have to leave independent schools.

It’s a no win scenario, and it is beyond depressing how many people fail (or choose not) to see this.

@Boohoo76 Are you deliberately misquoting me or do you struggle with reading comprehension? I in no way shape or form said children with low level SEN don’t matter. In fact quite the opposite in that I am arguing that state education and SEN provision needs improving for all. I am simply stating facts that children with more severe disabilities need more severe input, in my son’s case an independent school that was literally the only option for him and not what we would have chosen in any way, mainly due to the fact it was almost 2 hours away.

I completely understand, as I have said repeatedly, why parents feel forced to pay independent school fees but the fact remains it is a choice, and a choice not available to many parents of SEN children who cannot afford it and so it creates a 2 tier system. What parents should be lobbying for is improved SEN provision in state schools. And considering the VAT charged on private schools fees will help fund the increased budget announced for state schools all children will be benefit rather than just the select few with wealthy parents.

*@Marchesman
*
If a child's educational needs cannot be met in the state system then an alternative is a necessity - not a choice.

No. It's still a choice . Afforded by an economic ability to make that choice to put your child into a school that you believe will benefit them . The necessity is to make sure there is appropriate SEND provision in the state sector so that every family gets the support they need, not just those able to pay for an alternative.

How is it a choice if parents feel 'forced' to pay for private school to have their child's needs met? Would you accept it if your child's needs weren't being met?

Parents can lobby for improved state provision at state schools but there is no realistic plan to deliver this on the horizon. It will realistically take years of not decades to implement all the necessary changes. What about the SEN children that need extra support now? Do they not matter?

You’re the one struggling with comprehension. You seem completely unable to understand that some parents having exhausted all their options in a state system that has failed their DC, felt that their only option was to move to the independent system.

Exactly this!

It’s a choice because no one is telling them they have to pay independent school fees. They choose to go that route rather than appeal the EHCP, contact their MP, go to tribunal. All the things I did when my son was left with no school at all as none could meet his needs. I understand why people do it, battling the education system is soul destroying but many don’t have any other option. If my son’s needs were not being met I could not afford private school fees so I wouldn’t be able to make this choice. If social care withdrew his care tomorrow I wouldn’t be able to afford private care so these choices are not open to me as they are not open to many others. I would have to quit work and care for him myself ultimately. This is the situation many many people are in. Hence we should be focussing on improving provision for all SEN children in state schools so parents are not feeling they have to make this choice. But yes it will take a long time to solve unfortunately.

And you’re both happy to damage children in the process. Why can’t the state sector SEN provision be improved without damaging children in the independent sector?

As I’ve posted above, I’m all for additional money in the state system BUT it should be based on income and the wealthiest (including those who use state schools) should pay.

Where is this additional money coming from to improve state provision? If you also don’t want to tax private education, increase employer national insurance etc. The Tory’s have left us in this mess and as a result every single public service is crumbling. Some very tough decisions have to be made to resolve the issue and whilst I don’t agree with all of them I accept that there isn’t a decision that will please everyone so we simply have to do what we can.

Interesting you mention quitting work. My friend has just spent over a year getting an ECHP (despite being told that her DC wouldn’t qualify). However my friend doesn’t work as she’s ND herself and has mental health issues as well. You do realise that some parents, after trying to secure appropriate provision in the state system, decide to pursue independent education for their DC because that’s the only way they can continue working. In my case, if I take my DC out of independent school, the only option would be homeschooling which would mean that I have to give up work.

As I have said on numerous occasions, I am all for improving state schools and SEN provision in state schools but that doesn’t mean it’s OK to punish some kids in independent schools in the process.

Well it’s not coming from private schools. In fact, the VAT policy is likely to cost more than it makes. As I have said above, additional state school funding should come from additional income tax. Everyone should pay according to their income so that wealthy state school parents pay their fair share.

It will only cost more than it makes if children are moved from private to state schools. I don’t believe that will happen but I guess we can wait and see.

Children are already moving and more are not starting in the first place. The IFS has already acknowledged that the policy is not likely to bring in as much as they forecasted in the “independent” report that the Labour Party rely on. It’s now been established that the author of the IFS report has close links to the Labour Party.

@Boohoo76 The IFS also state that the number of pupils moving from private to state is likely to be minimal and not significantly impact the additional revenue gained from VAT on private schools.

ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending

Labour want as many children as possible with SEND in mainstream and only those with the most complex needs in special schools. What they are planning is never going to work in a million years. They are not going to spend more on SEND, it is all for show. They are going to sell the lie that most kids with SEND will cope in mainstream and they are going to make it the schools problem. They already think too much is being spent on SEND.

As I said (1) the IFS have already acknowledged problems with the report and (2) there is a big question over the independency of the report.

Oh and with regards to (1), the IFS have actually said that the number of children moving could be twice as much as they originally said.

The numbers moving to state will be far higher than predicted and of course some bullshit excuse will be made. This govt is drunk on power and it will catch up with them

You really have been drinking the Kool-Aid.

All state schools are not the same. Hundreds of state schools do just as well in terms of academic attainment as private schools, and orders of magnitude better than other schools on the same budget. They need no improvement.

Taxing private education will not magically improve the performance of the worst state schools. and rather than resolving segregation in the state sector, it will make it worse.

A government that is serious about education would deal directly with schools that teach the population of interest, as the Tories did with grade inflation and curriculum reform - which led to improvements in literacy and numeracy - and which Labour seem set to reverse.

Not for SEN children. They are failed in every single state school currently, so improvement is desperately needed.

No. It's a necessity, especially for parents who are on the cusp of being unable to afford it - or they wouldn't impoverish themselves to fund it and they wouldn't be in receipt of means tested bursaries.

If that is a choice then so is adequate SEND provision by the state, which the state is in a much better position to afford. Plenty of states choose to provide less.

I agree with you tbh. I really dislike the fact that someone in receipt of £3k worth of education a week would even consider suggesting that other Sen children should pay additional costs. Classic pulling up the drawbridge vibes at play. Seriously, it is such a shame that parents are being pitted against each other due to this govt spiteful decisions.

@prestolondon You completely misread my comment. I never said he received £3k a week in education. I said his care, now that he is an adult, is 3k a week. He is completely reliant on carers for every single aspect of his life.

Secondly I have never suggested that other SEN children should pay additional costs. I personally believe independent schools should be abolished and state school provision improved to provide for all but that’s never going to happen.

I did state you cannot compare provision provided to a child with severe disabilities, that need feeding, changing, non verbal etc. to a child with low level SEN needs.