How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Running a company where HBS is one of the main target schools, this is not a surprise. Children who opt for private often take this exam anyway, either seen as practice or a back up. So I’d never expect the numbers to change.

True. I know several girls who took it last year as a free mock for the SPGS and CLSG first round exams.

We know at least one child in that position who will be taking HBS this year instead of the other private options because of VAT. And yes said child already has exceptional scores for other grammars.

I already know of two girls who passed the first-round exam and listed another school as their first choice on their CAF forms this year instead of HBS. Their primary target is still top independent school.

Things are changing @yousf - school fees at St Paul’s for the academic year 2024-2025 is £10,531 (excluding VAT)!
Once someone holds the HBS or Tiffin offer in their hand they will do the Maths. So there is no way of knowing, unless they are multimillionaires or get a full bursary. For those who normal professionals with kids on Diploma level piano etc, things are shifting very rapidly. You only need a certain amount of them to change ship and they all go.

@Araminta1003 Things are always evolving, but certainly not in the direction you think they will. Your perspective is based on own situation, but many people who have the means to attend independent schools understand the value they receive compared to state schools. This isn't something that a VAT adjustment can change.

@yousf - I can’t afford top private schools anyway, so not own situation. My kids just do a lot of high level music so the parents talk, a lot about this.

But it is clearly the demographic of very academic very talented kids not multimillionaires.

@Araminta1003 Parents talk all the time, but that doesn't mean you know the true picture. Perception limits recognition. Parents also have been discussing the record high number of grammar school applicants earlier this year.

Are those girls likely to pass the second round exam? HBS should have sent them their scores and rankings.

No one can tell by the time you apply, but it doesn't matter that much since it wasn't the first choice on the CAF form.

@yousf - schools like Westminster and St Paul’s will have to realise that if they want to keep the top performers from professional parents rather than multimillionaires, they are going to have to go back to offering proper scholarships and less bursaries. Or completely change the fee structure - different bands of pay based on income etc. The current structure favours the talented from very rich households and those with no means. It completely cuts out even the professional successful parents who can easily tutor and use extracurricular all over London.

So when we talk about becoming “more elite” what we actually mean is attracting just the properly rich. And let’s face it - would you send your kids to a school full of rich but just above average and perfectly nice kids? Who likely will never have to do much work in their lives? What impact will that have on their drive etc?

As soon as they lose the middle aspirational completely, they will be stuffed for getting the real talent in unless they up bursaries. But how will that work? Rich average and very clever limited means. It won’t.

You can see they all think they are fine and will just pass the buck. Unlikely in my mind. But as you say, why would I know.

That was last year.

I won't go into details here as it's other people's lives but personally I've never ever planned to apply for grammar or change school until VAT. My DD was happy where she was, but we had to move for a better scholarship. I applied for HBS just one day before the deadline and it was a decision forced by VAT.

I know many people whose decisions are being similarly forced. They've never considered state including grammar but are now sitting 11+ or switching to local comp.

The scene has changed.

You're certainly not familiar with the demographic of the families in these schools; it's purely your imagination that they are all multi-millionaires. You've branded yourself as a professionally successful parent, which says a lot about how restricted your own recognition is.

searching for evidence or anecdotes to support one's own actions, even when the overall data or evidence contradicts it, is an example of confirmation bias.

@yousf - I am very familiar with the current demographic in these schools. I am simply stating that the VAT coupled with the substantial increases over the last 5 years plus the uni admissions process - it has changed things. You can ignore it as much as you like. It is simply my opinion.

Since Brexit and Covid, I think a lot of people have become more flexible and adaptable and actually more resilient in many ways and are used to the political bullshit. So absolutely people will be changing their behaviour very quickly to suit themselves.

Indeed, your opinion is rooted in imagination, which significantly diverges from reality.

@yousf - I believe you are wrong. Humans are social animals. You just need the most talented kids in the preps in London to go to grammar and within a couple of years that becomes the established norm. It is really that simple. So if @Ubertomusic is telling you that they have changed course, then that means they have changed course. You see in every school state or private, the most talented in the year group set the scene of aspiration. It really is not that complicated. So once a few of them go down that route, they all do.

HBS doesn't tell the scores to those who are through to the 2nd round.

Things are changing - school fees at St Paul’s for the academic year 2024-2025 is £10,531 (excluding VAT)!

I think you mean per term not per year!!

@Araminta1003 If you believe you're right simply because someone agrees with you, then there's no point in arguing. You're confining yourself to a narrow perspective, thinking only one outcome is possible.

Yes of course I meant per term. So that is £31593 pre VAT and extras. Add on 6318.69 in VAT at 20 per cent = £37911.6 (maybe they will be like the other girls schools and pass on less VAT?)
And then Labour will charge for extracurricular too and possibly school trips? No idea if this school includes lunches or not.
And now NI and then business rates - no idea if this school has already factored in business rates.
But that will be 40k a year - that was more like 20k when my eldest was young. And even then it was a lot.

So now how many people can afford 40k per year per child? Assuming not everyone has just 1 child. Which for me with 4 DC would be another issue. I would not want them in a school with mainly single children either. A mix would be nice.

And how many people go - well 7x40k plus and rising is close to £300k. What can I do for my DC with 300k instead. Ah well, they are clever and they might as well go to grammar and I will top up with tutoring and trips myself. Especially if I don’t have to pay VAT.