Is this even legal - 38 kids in a class ?

[Nclemonbaby]

My child just started at a new school and the grade above her (year 3) has 38 kids per class (our grade has 30). I thought the maximum was 30?

Clever old David Cameron introduced a new rule that said the ideal class size was no more than 30, but if you really had to then you could fit more as long as you give a reason.

Due to the sudden closure of a local private school my daughter's classed made it up to 37 by the end of Yr 6.

Fine from year 3. Class sizes are limited but to yr 2

They can legally have 38 but the school is chasing money or only has 38 DC out of 45 or 60 places filled. Few schools do this because classrooms are not big enough and teachers aren’t happy. DC might be LAC I guess but 8 extra is a lot. I’m assuming they are not merging years? What size are other years? How are the classes organised? How come so many dc have asked for a place and got one? I’d be miffed about this.

I have 41 in one of my classes. Ludicrous.

Mine is in a college, though, so rules don't apply! 🤷‍♀️

No class size rules in England beyond KS1...

Back in the day, class sizes were more then 45 and if the teacher was competent, it worked fine.
A bad teacher was not so good though!

So y3-y6 all have 38 dc in them? I missed that - ignore a question I asked earlier. I’ve honestly never seen that. What is the PAN? My old primary class was 40 and it wasn’t fine at all.

Wait until the private school kids all filter in…

In theory if our tiny village school was ever full we’d have 45 in the 2nd class (combined Y2-4), but as there’s never 15 per year it doesn’t happen (PAN was incased from
8 to 15 but they never get more than 10).

We’ve got 65 total from 4-11, DD’s one of 5 in reception (taught with Y1 making 15 total).

@Mum2jenny Who was it fine for? If all 45 are able to access the curriculum and minimal behaviour issues, then fine. I suspect that many children with send had been weeded out and high ability students were suffering silently.

Pretty standard in this bit of Canada. My son’s Junior High class (French Immersion) has that many. There are also 6 English classes of a similar size for his year. Repeat that across the 6 years of Jr/Sr High. The school is heaving.

We used to have 31/32 in the 60s and 70s with no TAs. Not that this makes it right.
Our whole education system needs a shake up imo. We're still running schools like we did 100 years ago!

General TAs in primaries are not actually very common in 2024. Often TAs work completely outside the classroom, taking children out for interventions such as speech and language (formerly delivered by the NHS, now schools just get guidance and TAs deliver it) or work closely with children who would have been in a special school even 20 years ago. Especially in KS2 classes, the teacher is very often (or usually even) alone with 30 or more children.

Once all the people are priced out of private education this will become the norm.

How will "all" the people get priced out of private education? Incredibly expensive schools like Eton and Brighton College are not short of candidates, even with fees up to £65K a year.

I once taught 36. 35 were compliant 1 a pain. It's too much. Even 30 is too much

The class sizes are only going to go up under labour especially in early years. Those already committed to private school may struggle to find the money but most parents will be wary of sending their kids there now unless they're walking the small number of super rich. So primary schools are expected to see an increase in class sizes.

Because Eton and the top public schools aren't the norm for indy schools. In fact they make up 1% of all indy schools. The wealthiest parents who use Eton etc have been able to afford to pay all the fees up front to avoid VAT. It is us, more average parents who make up the bulk of parents at indy schools who will be unable to afford the VAT.
10 kids left yr 7 of DDs indy school at end of Summer, all went to the local state school. That's 10 kids for 1 year in a rural school with only 2 form entry. So you can see how quickly class sizes can increase.

30 per year is a KS1 rule but they can go to 31 under certain circumstances like child 30/31 being twins.

My son had 37 in year 6. There were 5 new starters in year 6 (including him )

It isn't always chasing money. We are at 120% of capacity because the LA keeps forcing us to take students, mostly ones who are excluded from other schools much further away. We seriously don't have enough chairs in some rooms.

Sadly it is. My son had 42 in his class for 2 years. To be honest he had a good teacher and made a lot of progress. But I think the teacher must have been exhausted.

Aren’t you a bit naive?

There are roughly 2600 private schools in the UK.
The top schools will never have problems. They will just take a few less able candidates but their parents have money from the next group of schools down the league table. The schools down below with small number of intakes will fold or will be struggling due to the domino effect.

Recent requests for information to LA by parents with kids in private schools show very few if at all spare places in secondary schools in counties in the SE and SW. The effect of this will not show straight away but will be showing, starting with competition for places of grammar schools and good state schools.

@Nclemonbaby The limit of 30 pupils in a class with a single teacher that was introduced under Tony Blair has only ever applied to classes where the majority of pupils are in Reception, Y1 and Y2. It does not apply to Y3 and above. Similarly, it does not apply to the mixed Y2-Y4 class mentioned by another poster. Even where the limit does apply, there are 8 categories of "excepted" children. These don't count towards the class size limit and there is no limit to how many a class can have. A Y1 class of 38 would be legal provided 8 of the pupils are excepted.

As you are talking about a Y3 class, this is legal. Most schools and admissions appeal panels prefer to have no more than 34 in a class, but sometimes this isn't possible.

Maximum we had is 32 in a highly popular state school, with a high birth rate year (son is now 15yrs old). I feel sorry for the teachers and also even with a super teacher, children's issues or just the quiet kids are going to get lost. Never mind that potential academic achievement must be impacted.