Is this even legal - 38 kids in a class ?

[Nclemonbaby]

My child just started at a new school and the grade above her (year 3) has 38 kids per class (our grade has 30). I thought the maximum was 30?

Not sure if this is another stealth post on VAT in private schools or not. My children have had 34/35 in their classes for many years, so nothing to do with private schools.
There are plenty of spaces in state schools for any private school pupils that might wish to join. They might be in bigger classes than they are used to at private school, and they might not be in the closest or most desirable state school but we are talking about tiny numbers of pupils who I’m sure will enjoy their state education like the vast majority of UK children already do.

Actually there aren't "plenty of places" available, I can give you lots of stories where there are kids withdrawn from Indy who currently don't have a state place. Many are those in Yr 10 + 12 who are having to re-think GCSE and A level options. I can also give a list of all the LAs who have said "no places" for individual years.
As with everything, it is very postcode specific.

Yes legal in England.

I'm a secondary teacher and we used to overload our top sets so we could have smaller bottom sets and support the lower attaining students.

36 was normal for a top set.

private schools have been closing for years

Had 32 once and that was too much. It was a difficult class with lots of SEN and going over 30 was the last thing they needed. 38 would have me finally having enough and quitting state sector. I can’t see how that is fair on anyone.

Come to an LA close by me. It has closed 16 schools in the last 6 years, due to falling roles.

DfE stats also show no shortage of places in England either. There maybe pupils who are offered places at schools that parents didn't choose, but nevertheless places are available as the LA has a statutory duty to provide every child with a school place.

Not all but definitely some, a lot of Private schools charge £15/20k or similar per year and 20% on top of that (especially for more than one child) will make it unaffordable for people who can only just afford fees now

My first class year 5&6 had 41 children in 2000. It’s not unusual now not was it 25 years ago

Up to end of Y2 limit is supposed to be 30.

DC first school Y3 had many appeal from Infant school trying to avoid junior one and school was forced to take many - so larger classed in Y3 up.

Also when council made an error for starting school - they said the TA having teaching qualifications and extra TA bodies was enough (large number of children who qualified for support ) and both reception class both had 34 - was told not allowed on here but it was (one reception teacher in other class spent much of year on sick leave as well) . End of year they were down to 30 and 29 - as it was less than ideal and many moved to other local schools. It really wasn't great for my child in one of the classes.

We moved areas and best thing about new school for older two was much smaller classes and youngest was still at 30 when they got to Y3 - they got much more teacher attention.

Secondary here had huge teacher retention issues and getting subject teachers - and some subjects huge classes - got told on here I must be lying but my kids were in those classes. Not ideal but they still did okay in the end.

Yes I was taught in a top set of 34 in 1989-92.

There were 41 in my year 1 class in primary school in 1991. The teacher was completely out of control and used to just sit at her desk reading a novel while we had crayon fights or coloured something. The noise never stopped. Occasionally, she'd wheel out a big TV with a video of "Watch" or "Words and Pictures" and we'd sit on the carpet for it. Then we'd go back to our desks and do very little until home time.

Legal above y3 but very much not ideal. Teacher workload is through the roof with 38 instead of 30 - 8 extra lots of work to mark each lesson, 8 extra parents evenings, 8 extra reports and so on. Horrendous. May push some teachers over the edge meaning the class is left with no one/a supply teacher/a TA, which will likely be bad for the kids too. IMO class sizes should be capped at 30 all the way through primary like they are to y2. Can’t speak for secondary but I imagine having 38 in top set maths for example might be ok if it allows the bottom set to be 22.

In my final year of primary school (early 2000s) the school decided to merge the two year 6 classes, meaning there were subsequently 62 pupils sharing a giant classroom. We were still divided into two classes for Maths and English, but for every other subject (Sciences, Geography, History etc) we were taught as one large class.

This varies across the country. Our local state secondaries have no spare places for the years my children are in. They’re full. The nearest with space is about a 45 minute drive away. The DfE stats may well show there are spaces generally, but spare spaces in Liverpool is of no use to someone living in Bournemouth for example.

@Nclemonbaby I’ve quickly checked Google and lots of articles suggest that there is no class size limit at KS2 and above (assuming you’re in England or Wales).

I remember 80's primary school pre Nat Curric. We had 37 in our class, no TA, and a very experimental teacher who believed that the class could self-police and mainly work independently. I basically spent my days teaching myself maths (badly) out of a "Ginn" maths scheme book while living in fear of the "noise monitors" and their metre rules.

My ds9 says there are 31 children in his class and his year group (5) is full, with his school it comes down to physical space in the classroom I believe.

As for private schools, many of them will be forced to take a different approach if they haven't already. Marketing never used to be a thing in private schools but now many private schools have whole marketing teams. They have known about the upcoming challenges for some time now. Plus, the birth rate has been dropping for years. Swings and roundabouts. My dc have places already at a good primary which feeds into a good secondary so it won't affect us as the schools will be oversubscribed anyway.

For KS1 the maximum should be 30 but with TAs the class can be bigger. My junior school classes 1972 to 1976 were 34 to a class. Even at Grammar school 76/83 there are 33 girls in my Y7 photo and the numbers stayed about the same all way through. Year group of about 102 were divided into 4 maths sets but otherwise 3 classes for all other subjects. Some O level classes were a bit smaller. Entire Upper 6th of 48 were one Tutor group but with two teachers doing the load ie one seemed to concentrate on exam/timetable issues, the other did registration and actually not much else.....

No, the law for KS1 is 30 children per teacher. TAs don't count. However, some children are excepted and don't count towards the limit.

But remains that LA’s have a statutory duty to proved a school place for every child.
Strategic school place planning will and do address this through a range of strategies locally. For instance creating places, adjusting catchments, ( we have children who travel cross LA borders to attend schools close to where their parent works, rather than close to home) who wouldn't get a place if places were scarce.

Nationally there is not an issue in number of children and school places. ( of course, as no government is going to run a country with too few school places for the amount of children)

There were 37 in my DS's year group from Yr 3. It was actually 37 right from reception but they got around it by using mixed year groups in KS1.
His wasn't actually the biggest class I'd seen in his school. When we went for a tour of the school before he started, the then Yr 5 had 38 pupils.
And that's in a village school with a 1 form per year intake.
So, yes it is legal.

Ignore all the people who say that class size will only go up. This is a demographic bubble working through and we are looking at years of falling class sizes and closing schools - school closures are already happening due to plummeting numbers of school age children.

Thank you for your replies, I don’t see how class sizes will drop (not at our school anyway) We relocated so not us but at the new joiners talk, most of the parents said they switched schools due to VAT on private but I am shocked they can accept more than 30! Not sure I can do anything about it for year 3!!! The nearest schools are also all full so not really any choices to move my child.

I did hear the catchment for our reception grade has shrunk a lot this year also.

Yes, the LEA do have a statutory duty to provide places. With regard to local strategies, I’m assuming one of those is creating places by increasing class sizes, which is probably why the OP has ended up with a class of 38. In our wider local area, there simply aren’t any spaces in many year groups. The only way to cope with extra children locally is by increasing class sizes (which is clearly happening in some cases), increasing the number of classes (unlikely due to lack of space and staff), or building new schools.

Unfortunately this is happening in many areas. It doesn’t sound like you can do much unfortunately. It’s not great for any of the children affected though. The LEA are required to find places for everyone. If there’s a sudden increase in demand, often the only solution will be to increase class sizes. Might be worth raising with your MP.