Is this even legal - 38 kids in a class ?

[Nclemonbaby]

My child just started at a new school and the grade above her (year 3) has 38 kids per class (our grade has 30). I thought the maximum was 30?

38 is a lot for one class, but it all comes down to how the school manages it. With 38 7 and 8 year olds, I visualise this as one teacher and two TAs, or possibly one TA and one HLTA. If that is the case, there is a good ratio of adults to children, and preferable to having two classes of around 20 with one teacher but no additional adults.

Just to provide a bit of balance - dd2 is in a y4 class with 21 pupils, 42 in the year with a PAN of 60. Dd1 is in an 8 form entry high school with 28 in her form. Doubt this is unusual around here, half the high schools are full and half have a small number of places. PY results at the high school did have 245 entrants so must have ended up going slightly over PAN.

When I was at school in the 60s I recall having 42 in a (primary) class. We sat in rows, in silence unless spoken to.

However, with today's discipline & class layouts I don't think it would work.

My DC's primary had an unusual set up. PAN of 35, so 4 ks1 classes with mixed ages, and then all taught together in year groups in KS2. At one point one of my DC had 37 in classes due to moves. Each class did have a lot of TA support though

From a parent's perspective my kids had a great time and achieved well, but the increase in teaching workload must be significant.

Ironically the falling birth rate may result in larger class sizes as falling roll will impact level of funding for schools, so KS2 classes may have to merge to save cost of teacher. Normally merged classes are common for small rural schools with low PAN, but more single form entry schools will have to start merging classes before average class size falls below 15, so some classes will have to have more than 30 in a class. Getting more common to separate classes out for Maths/English in the morning and have 2 teaching adults, then merge in the afternoon with one adult in the room. All cost cutting exercises

KS1 legal maximum is 30. KS2 has no maximum.

We chose DD's school because of small classes. They've now merged Y3,4 and 5 into 2 classes instead of 3, and Y3/4 has 32 children. They said it's temporary. If it's not, I'm more likely to deregister her and home ed than let her be in a class of 32.

38 is absurd.

Most schools won’t be able to maintain small class sizes economically. Don’t choose a school specifically for small class sizes

It’s legal and something you will see more of with fewer going to private secondary schools.

Mostly not U.K. parents or students is what people don't appreciate.

U.K. private and public schools such as eton will just have a higher proportion of overseas students who can pay, while more UK kids move into state schools

Yeah this is exactly it. We viewed a very well-known private prep for DS 2 years ago when we were weighing up our options. Most of the kids were Russian or Chinese.

Do you mean that instead of having YR with 37, Y1 with 37 and Y2 with 37, they simply mixed the years up - so they still had 3 classes of 37, but with mixed ages in each??

That seems crazy, given that teaching mixed years is presumably already harder than teaching a single year group.

I don't even see how that would help - the 30 limit is for KS1 not just reception year.

I assume they had 4 classes in KS1, as the class can’t be bigger than 30 whether mixed or not, per teacher, then reverted back to single classes in KS2 @strawberrybubblegum

Someone said up thread that the 30 limit in KS1 doesn't apply to mixed age classes.

So it would be a way to stay within the letter of the law.

Combined y2-y4 class??? That's ridiculous

Ah, that would make more sense!

I don’t think that is correct @strawberrybubblegum, with respect to being allowed more than 30 in mixed age KS1 class

@purplebeansprouts do you have experience of small rural schools. Many of them have 1 class for EYFS and KS1 and another class for KS2. Others will have different combinations of mixed year groups, depending on the split of ages

@strawberrybubblegum Bumper year groups seem to occur every 2 or 3 years, so the Yr 1 and Yr 2 had under 30 in each. They mixed the Yr1 & Yr 2 classes together then added in the excess Year R children - a few in each class. They picked the more academic YR children so it actually worked quite well.

Lots of spaces in our East London primaries - more central London primaries are having to close: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68144986.amp

I'm really surprised people are saying most schools don't have TAs, DS goes to a largeish primary, very mixed catchment demographic, about 45% PP. Reception they had 4 classes of 30 each class had a teacher, a TA and a SEN TA (green polo shirts so you can tell which are which), that also have a SEND unit where the children are taught there but come into mainstream for certain lessons or activities.
He's in Yr 1 now still 4 classes of 30 each have a teacher and a TA , two of the classes have a full time SEN TA and the other two has one 4 days a week (I'm assuming this is to do with SEN ratios in those classes). It's part of an academy trust which has 4 schools and a good reputation. Where is the money coming from for these TAs if other schools don't have them?

The SEND unit will be funded quite well, and that means the rest of the school will benefit - eg £6000 per typical pupil compared with £28,000 per provision pupil.

A year 2-4 class is still ridiculous

@purplebeansprouts becuase it goes over Key Stages? Schools will try and avoid that, but depending on numbers that might be the only option they have, if for example they have a large number of Y1 pupils so can’t mix too many pupils from Y2 in and likewise for Y5.

My DC school is like this. They have only 6 classrooms. So they keep the year group together in Rec, Y1 and Y2, but then split the kids across 3 classrooms in KS2. So there’s a 3/4 class, a 4/5 class and a 5/6 class each with around 35-38 depending in each class. 37 in my DS’s class.