Nursery form teacher handed us a bag of poo

[ButterscotchWhip]

Right. I'll try to keep it short, but I don't think it will be.

DD has just turned 3. A couple of weeks ago she started in the nursery class of what I've now realised is quite a formal and strict girls' independent school. It is highly regarded locally, and me and DH loved it when we looked round, but I now fear I've done myself and DD up like a kipper sending her here.

She's fully potty trained but (my fault) I don't think I got her onto actual toilet training quickly enough. September has rolled around and she's just not 100% there on toilet training. I tell the staff this and they seem ok with it at first. I offer to send in her carry potty (which she loves and uses well) - they say no. The class is large, and the way they do toilet trips is to take a group to the loos and then the teacher stands nearby. It's just not enough support for DD, and she's had a lot of accidents there (for which we receive intense FIRST AID NOTIFICATION emails as they have to change her). Anyway, she's now never telling them when she needs to go, and she is running away from the loo at home saying she doesn't like the toilet (and started crying about it yesterday too).

We get an email from her form teacher this week saying she must now be in nappies during school time. DH emails back and says we certainly don't support this idea, she's on the right path but in a brand new environment, nappies will confuse her and send her learning backwards etc. He suggests that if this issue is one of a lack of resource / low levels of staffing, then that's a worry. He's not rude, just quite straight up.

The next morning at 9am, I receive a call from school saying DH must be collected and taken home for a bath as she's soiled herself AND they will not allow her back in school unless she's in pull-ups. I am not free to get her, neither is DH, but our son's carer/nanny is and happily collects her. She finds DD just needs a good wipe, not really a bath. Upon arriving at reception to receive DD, our nanny is given a binliner. It transpires this contains DD's soiled knickers, THE ENTIRE TURD, and all the wipes they have already used on DD's guilty bum (barf).

I haven't said anything in response to any staff yet as we already have a catch-up meeting, face to face, with the form teacher tomorrow. But presuming that they have a rubbish bin in school, I think the sh*t-bag might have been a thinly veiled message of hostility, no?

I am boggling from all this. Would genuinely love to hear what other MNers would do now!

They sound awful. Child centered care??

I would withdraw her immediately. That school sounds terrible! Herding groups of children en masse to the toilets at specific unmovable times. They are three!! Utterly bizarre they should try and shame you and your child. It's disgusting they gave a bag of shite!
Surely in that age group there's a toilet just off the classroom or next door, and kids are able to go there alone but can still be observed or helped if needed. They are giving your poor child a toilet phobia.
I'd get her in somewhere much kinder and more suitable for a three year old.

This is not a normal nursery/playgroup! At just turned 3 accidents are expected especially when starting in a new environment and I've never come across a child care setting that hasn't been exceptionally supportive over it. Honestly, the way they've responded to you would have me looking for somewhere far friendlier and encouraging.

I'm sorry, what?
How rude!
There is an absolute obsession with potty training by two, three the latest, and it's deemed a failure of parents and/or the poor child if it's not happening or perfect.
The nursery was completely out if line in how they handled this and seem to have shamed your dc to the point that she's afraid now. Inexcusable.

Are the toilets not in or near the classroom? They certainly should be for nursery age! I wouldn't be happy sending a three year old out of the classroom to a toilet on their own. Is this why they go as a huge group? Because it's unsafe otherwise. Sounds like they've made a classroom into a nursery and it's not suitable.

With wipes, if they're not flushable then they have to be put in a separate bin (like a sanitary bin) and collected weekly...this is the case in my setting. Maybe they don't have that facility.

Excellent advice there, although I don't agree with the pull-ups. Huge, huge set back for her, and honestly feels like it's a punishment - you are struggling with using the toilet so we will treat you like the baby you are. Yuck. Three year olds having regular accidents is completely and utterly normal when they are only recently potty trained, AND she's now in a completely new, busy, overwhelming environment. Of course she's prone to accidents! Four year olds starting Reception are also super prone to accidents when they first start school, and they've usually been toilet trained for well over a year already. Ex Nursery and Reception teacher here - I'd get her out of there as quickly as you possibly can. They should be making reasonable adjustments for her and they're not. I'd also consider making a complaint to your local authority, and to OFSTED.

Oh, also - sending home the actual turd and the cleaning wipes(!) is absolutely NOT standard procedure. I would be making a separate complaint about that. It's disgusting, disrespectful, and downright bloody dirty.

Then they need to put those facilities in place. How do they dispose of bloody tissues after a nosebleed or a scraped knee? It's all biohazard waste, so all goes in the same bin.

Playing devils advocate here as I don’t know the answer. These facilities are expensive. Picked up weekly by PHS man usually. Depending on age they accept students - after 3 only and expected to be fully toilet trained - it would be unlikely to have this. most primary’s without a nursery setting will not have them.

blood etc is not considered the same risk as faecal matter and therefore doesn’t have the same rules.

but if they accept under 3s to nursery they should def have them!

Blood on tissues or the famous wet paper towels are bagged and binned. We CANNOT put soiled nappies in waste bins. We have to send them home. Is that minging? Yes, of course it is but schools do not have the budget to pay for nappy bins and collections. Most children are expected to be toilet trained by three. Of course there will be the occasional accident that we deal with in a sensitive manner. I would be more worried about and question where the toilets are??

It's standard for independent schools to request children are fully trained before starting pre school, if your child wasnt ready they should have delayed attending. A pre school is not a nursery, the two are verry different.The staff are not there to teach toilet training and wipe bottoms, they are there to teach and teach alone, that is the reason parents move children to pre schools rather than continue within a nursery setting. I'm really surprised that wasn't mentioned at interview, I've experienced 3 different independent schools for our daughters and all 3 were explicit that children must be fully trained before their first day at school be that 3 or older. The fact they will even allow pull ups is already more relaxed than those our girls attended.

To be fair 3 is old enough to be fully toilet trained, focus on cracking that.

I think all they really need from nursery at that age is a friendly environment where adults will make them feel safe and cared for while they find their feet. They’ve let her down on the essentials by the sound of it, and it’s much worse if they didn’t even make the policy clear! We had lots of support to help my son finish potty training at nursery at 3. And when my nephew went to a nursery where they were supposed to be potty trained but wasn’t quite there yet they still showed a sensible level of flexibility! Think I would want to move her if possible in your shoes…

I guess some teachers strongly object to having to wipe arses (as would I) but you'd think they would know it's part of the job with kids as young as this.

3 year olds soiling themselves really isn't normal or accepted within independant schools One of our daughters schools we were asked to commit to a minimum of 3 months clean. If the child is not ready they should not have started to attend until they are.

State schools may well be different, although it's been well covered in the press exactly how unacceptable teaching staff in state schools find untrained children to be.

It feels as if people are confusing nurseries and pre schools. The two are very different offerings, with very different acceptable standards.

So they will change a soiled pull up but not soiled pants.

That's the bit I'd be focussing on.

It doesn't make sense. They'll either clean a child up or they won't.

This. They are being vile about this. What are the chances they show and tell your DD exactly how unhappy they are with every accident? Which would explain her new behaviour.

Their staff ratios sound odd if they can’t ever take one or two children to the loo on demand at this age.

It’s a nursery, not school. I wouldn’t send her back another day. Find a nice normal nursery staffed by human beings.

I have a child with a learning disability at a similar setting and while she is toilet trained she does still have some accidents and would struggle to communicate that she needed the toilet consistently so needs prompting and support. They accommodate her. Yes, the equalities act applies. I’d be fuming if they sent a turd home or if they were passive aggressive about supporting her. What I would say is that it’s been a very big learning curve for them and has taken quite a lot of gentle reminding of the law (and what a common sense approach might look like).

Regardless, there are plenty of typically developing kids there who have taken a little longer with toileting. Frankly if they think it’s not part of their job to deal with accidents I’d suggest they shouldn’t be working with 3 year olds.

Move her asap. I send my DD (2.7) to a nursery attached to a quite strict independent school.

The staff is so lovely and supportive with her potty training. The children go alone with their key worker as needed (no door to loo, all above board and ofsted compliant). She had a poo accident on Monday. I was handed a fairly pooey pair of knickers in a bag.

That's really not the problem in your story. They're not supportive and they've made your daughter terrified. She's expressing her discomfort and distress. Move her to a nicer setting and report this one to ofsted.

Exactly my son is 3.5 and his nursery room has little toilets they can go to whenever they like. They also accommodate potties I've seen parents bringing them in. They're amazing re toilet training tbh and their relaxed attitude rubs off on the kids.

I appreciate your experience, but calling one a nursery and the other a pre-school doesn't change childhood development. Soiling every day is out of the ordinary, but is also understandable when she has only just started at this new (busy, overwhelming) place, and the school seems to put putting a lot of pressure on this little girl.

This!!

@ButterscotchWhip

I think the staff don’t want to scrape/ rinse poo off the pants. Also I don’t think they take them to the toilet to get changed. Instead they use the changing table so they can give a proper wipe, also possibly safeguarding? They have nappy bags and a bin so they just bag the poopy pants and hand them over. I asked them just to bin as life is too short and bought cheap pants from supermarket. It’s didn’t happen often.

A 3yo who is not toilet-trained, can't clean their teeth or use cutlery, and has never read a book or held a crayon is a completely different social phenomenon from a 3yo who is struggling specifically with toileting for developmental or medical reasons. Being 'sent home for two weeks' for remedial training simply wouldn't work with the latter. I'm sure you know this really if you work in EY.

But the same law applies to both - that a blanket standard of continence must not be applied as it is discriminatory. Why are we considering private schools to be above the law (or, if you think the law is wrong, why are state school staff having to change children while private school staff do not have to?)

I think this is the issue. It isn't a nursery/playgroup. It's not a daycare setting. It's a SCHOOL. And the staff don't have time or inclination to deal with a DC who isn't toilet trained.
.
I suppose OP, they couldn't have made it more specific to you than they did by saying that no she can't bring her potty (which automatically tells you she needs to be toilet trained because there's no alternative. If they're not going to deal with a potty, they're not going to deal with a nappy either), because it seems they'd have been breaking the law if they worded it more specifically. They also haven't expelled her, though I'm sure at this point they'd like to, but have said she needs to wear pull-ups. That's not excluding her for not being toilet trained. They're just not agreeing to help toilet train her either. They've stayed just the right side of legal.
.
I don't think it'll solve any problems to use pull-ups because DD is still not going to tell them she needs to go and she's still going to have the shame of knowing she's soiled herself. And she's still not going to be clean because firstly they might not immediately realise she's had an accident, like they would if she was in ordinary pants and if they're not cleaning her up themselves and are leaving her to do it, that isn't going to change just because she's in pull-ups. If there's no biohazard waste bin you're still going to get shitty pull-ups sent home.
.
I guess they said she needs a bath to stop any thoughts of asking them to clean her, which you might have done if they'd just said she needs wiping. The secretary who phoned you also isn't in charge of the school rules and most probably didn't want to potentially hear an angry parent rant on about why don't they wipe your DD, so saying "needs a bath" stops that. It gets the stinky bag of mess gone earlier, when the DC is collected. It causes the parents hassle with having to collect, which maybe makes them think twice about sending a DC who isn't toilet trained into school. It prevents a parent turning up to wipe DD down, then send her back into the class to potentially have yet another accident that day for the teachers to deal with, and putting the biohazard wipes into any old bin in the school after they've finished. I don't think it was a pointless exaggeration for dramatic effect, I think it was tactical to achieve the result they wanted, the non-toilet-trained DC and the resulting mess out of the school environment ASAP with no argument from the parents.