Nursery form teacher handed us a bag of poo

[ButterscotchWhip]

Right. I'll try to keep it short, but I don't think it will be.

DD has just turned 3. A couple of weeks ago she started in the nursery class of what I've now realised is quite a formal and strict girls' independent school. It is highly regarded locally, and me and DH loved it when we looked round, but I now fear I've done myself and DD up like a kipper sending her here.

She's fully potty trained but (my fault) I don't think I got her onto actual toilet training quickly enough. September has rolled around and she's just not 100% there on toilet training. I tell the staff this and they seem ok with it at first. I offer to send in her carry potty (which she loves and uses well) - they say no. The class is large, and the way they do toilet trips is to take a group to the loos and then the teacher stands nearby. It's just not enough support for DD, and she's had a lot of accidents there (for which we receive intense FIRST AID NOTIFICATION emails as they have to change her). Anyway, she's now never telling them when she needs to go, and she is running away from the loo at home saying she doesn't like the toilet (and started crying about it yesterday too).

We get an email from her form teacher this week saying she must now be in nappies during school time. DH emails back and says we certainly don't support this idea, she's on the right path but in a brand new environment, nappies will confuse her and send her learning backwards etc. He suggests that if this issue is one of a lack of resource / low levels of staffing, then that's a worry. He's not rude, just quite straight up.

The next morning at 9am, I receive a call from school saying DH must be collected and taken home for a bath as she's soiled herself AND they will not allow her back in school unless she's in pull-ups. I am not free to get her, neither is DH, but our son's carer/nanny is and happily collects her. She finds DD just needs a good wipe, not really a bath. Upon arriving at reception to receive DD, our nanny is given a binliner. It transpires this contains DD's soiled knickers, THE ENTIRE TURD, and all the wipes they have already used on DD's guilty bum (barf).

I haven't said anything in response to any staff yet as we already have a catch-up meeting, face to face, with the form teacher tomorrow. But presuming that they have a rubbish bin in school, I think the sh*t-bag might have been a thinly veiled message of hostility, no?

I am boggling from all this. Would genuinely love to hear what other MNers would do now!

Because I have chosen to work in a school, not a nursery. Parents seem to have forgotten that potty training is their responsibility. With 30 children in a class we can't possibly spend time changing multiple children AND dealing with their poo in a way that would make parents happy. None of this makes me bad at my job.

I think there is some confusion here. A pre-school is not a nursery. It is geared to preparation for school, not as childcare. In a preschool, children are expected to be properly toilet trained. DS went to one from 2 1/2 but was fully toilet trained from 2 years 4 months.

@Ratfinkstinkypink yep we cannot put soiled clothing or wipes into a bin. It goes home. We don't have a clinical waste bin. Primary schools don't have them.

Legally, there is no distinction. No educational setting can apply a ‘blanket standard of continence’ as part of the condition of attendance. Not a pre-school, nor a school. Any setting that sets a blanket rule is breaking the law.

We would never ask a child to come in a nappy unless they were still too young for toilet training. At three you are right to insist that you won't be making backward steps to nappies or pull ups. It is part of the day to day care of that age group and they should expect it.

In regards to poo in a bag - we will shake out what we can but we won't clean soiled underwear as we don't have facilities to do so. Many parents prefer us to dispose of very soiled underwear but we need permission to do so.

This is why my dparents left me and my siblings in the care of my dipsomaniac chain-smoking granddad and a could-not-care less grandma until it was time to go to school! There was no creative 'development', sometimes we did not get fed, grandparents had a dog, ferrets and a hawk (hawk flew at us viciously when we approached her cage). We did not learn to read until we went to school at 5, we had no interaction with contemporaries (and we were not friendly to each other as siblings). Got taken to bet shops and to the dogs, were left in the house unattended for hours at a time. Basically, J.Wilson territory, but what amazing childhood it was - because there was no nursery!!!! Harsh and hard-working as my parents were, they clocked that it was torture to send anyone before 5 to a children's collective. No child should be out of their home environment before they are 5!!!!!

Wtaf I'd never send her there again. Also the class is large is no excuse for them managing- aren't they sticking to the legal ratios for the age?

i think this is terrible! I’d be leaving and looking elsewhere for a place in a nicer environment. They’re 3 and this seems extreme imo. The way they’ve handled it is diabolical!

They've done you a favour OP. It doesn't sound as if they have the slightest clue about early years education. I wouldn't want my child there tbh

The school aren’t banning her for not being toilet trained, they’re just asking that she wear pull-ups instead of pants - presumably because they don’t believe she’s actually toilet-trained and it’s causing a problem in class. Kids do have accidents at this age but if it’s a very frequent thing then it’s a sign they’re not ready yet. I don’t think the school is unreasonable to expect children who aren’t toilet trained to wear pull-ups. This has been my experience in both state and private pre-schools. Accidents are much better contained in a pull-up than in underwear. You need to ditch the potty and work on getting her comfortable on the toilet at home.

Amazingly, the children who had to go home for 2 weeks always came back toilet trained!
There are lots of things we have to do in school because the parents don’t do it. Our EYFS children clean their teeth in school daily. We have to teach the majority of them how to eat with a knife and fork. Some of the children have never read a book or held a crayon.
Many parents expect school to teach their children absolutely everything.

Madness. My child wouldn’t be staying there, I don’t give two fucks whether it’s a private school or not!

I agree. You’ve sent your child to a preschool. My son was at a day nursery (ratio 1:3) then went to a pre school attached to a school at 3. They don’t do toilet training there and quite clear you must toilet train your children well before their first day.

I do this a different environment would be better for your daughter. I can sort of understand the school, they’ve set their own structure and their ratios and day is set up around children who are toilet trained.

also my sons preschool (state church school) they won’t wipe any bottoms to all 3 year olds must be able to wipe as well!!

The ratios vary based on the setting though - from memory at 3 it's 1:8 unless there's a teacher present, in which case it's 1:13. So, it's probably a class of 25 with two adults (plus any 1:1s). They don't have capacity for dealing with lots of accidents, so asking for the DC to come in nappies until she's more settled and further along with training isn't unreasonable.

(No judgement either, my youngest wasn't trained until she was over 3 and then regressed and had loads of accidents, she wouldn't have been ready for a preschool environment at that age.)

A private nursery is not the same thing as a private prep school

At least it was not a bag of someone else's child's clothes covered in vomit. Once nursery did this to us, luckily I did not open the bag....disgusting and not sure why they would even save clothes covered in vomit!!! Throw it in the bin! Geez. I ended up throwing the book bag away, as was so disgusted they put a bag with some other child's vomit in there (contagious vomit a well, there was a tummy bug going around). It was a mistake on their part and they called me leaving me a VM telling me not to open the bag and apologizing of course.

This.

so these are the private school here right and people pay for their children to be treated worse than in a ex-soviet orphanage?! Lord, help this country

Keep her off school whilst you weigh up your options. Presumably your DS's nanny can care for her at home, and you were putting her in preschool for her own benefit, not childcare. Fear of going to the toilet is not to her benefit, and at the very least you need to get her back onto an even keel.

And then think really hard about whether that school is the right place for her. The school sharing your values is really important - otherwise you'll always be at odds with them.

Fwiw, DD's private school expects a huge amount from the girls from a young age and has a no-nonsense 'get on with it' vibe: but they are unfailingly kind. If a child became afraid of the toilet, they would see that fear as the problem - not the soiling - and would adapt as needed and work intensely alongside you to fix it.

Isn't it just a basic assumption that people will either ensure their child is toilet trained or send them in pull-ups rather than expect teachers will deal with children who aren't? Teachers aren't there to aid your child in toilet training - that's a parents job...

TBH I can well imagine they gave you the soiled knickers, turd and dirty wipes to prove a point and to ensure no allegations about inappropriate behaviour had been made - allegations of inappropriate touching of young children in nursery environments are not unusual tbh. They're more than likely covering their own back than trying to be a 'thinly veiled message of hostility.'

Poor little thing is only just 3. Perfectly normal to still be finding that particular skill a bit tricky - especially away from home. Nappies will totally confuse her.
I would be looking immediately for an alternative setting - and have her at home with the nanny for 3-6 months in the meantime. Until shes hopefully forgotton the mad school experience and also totally mastered the loo.

It annoys me somewhat that a lot of Early Years educators see themselves as children’s saviours and are very led by the latest educational fad.

It reminds me of the teacher in To Kill a Mockingbird telling Scout that everything she once knew was wrong, and that she wil try and undo the damage - and teach her properly…

How utterly disgustin tney should be reported.

This is unacceptable- meet the child where they are. I'm disappointed on your behalf and I have experience of working in these settings.

The bin bag thing is standard policy in a lot of places so forget that.

Their reluctance to accommodate a potty for a transitional period is not really acceptable, especially if you made it clear you are aiming for her to be toilet trained as soon as possible but your main concern is her settling in and continuing to work on the skills she already has. I'd go higher with this. It doesn't sound like a very nurturing environment.