Nursery form teacher handed us a bag of poo

[ButterscotchWhip]

Right. I'll try to keep it short, but I don't think it will be.

DD has just turned 3. A couple of weeks ago she started in the nursery class of what I've now realised is quite a formal and strict girls' independent school. It is highly regarded locally, and me and DH loved it when we looked round, but I now fear I've done myself and DD up like a kipper sending her here.

She's fully potty trained but (my fault) I don't think I got her onto actual toilet training quickly enough. September has rolled around and she's just not 100% there on toilet training. I tell the staff this and they seem ok with it at first. I offer to send in her carry potty (which she loves and uses well) - they say no. The class is large, and the way they do toilet trips is to take a group to the loos and then the teacher stands nearby. It's just not enough support for DD, and she's had a lot of accidents there (for which we receive intense FIRST AID NOTIFICATION emails as they have to change her). Anyway, she's now never telling them when she needs to go, and she is running away from the loo at home saying she doesn't like the toilet (and started crying about it yesterday too).

We get an email from her form teacher this week saying she must now be in nappies during school time. DH emails back and says we certainly don't support this idea, she's on the right path but in a brand new environment, nappies will confuse her and send her learning backwards etc. He suggests that if this issue is one of a lack of resource / low levels of staffing, then that's a worry. He's not rude, just quite straight up.

The next morning at 9am, I receive a call from school saying DH must be collected and taken home for a bath as she's soiled herself AND they will not allow her back in school unless she's in pull-ups. I am not free to get her, neither is DH, but our son's carer/nanny is and happily collects her. She finds DD just needs a good wipe, not really a bath. Upon arriving at reception to receive DD, our nanny is given a binliner. It transpires this contains DD's soiled knickers, THE ENTIRE TURD, and all the wipes they have already used on DD's guilty bum (barf).

I haven't said anything in response to any staff yet as we already have a catch-up meeting, face to face, with the form teacher tomorrow. But presuming that they have a rubbish bin in school, I think the sh*t-bag might have been a thinly veiled message of hostility, no?

I am boggling from all this. Would genuinely love to hear what other MNers would do now!

You are paying for an independent school with very large classes that need to march groups of children to the loo on some sort of rota! This is insane!

Why can't she just stay at home? She's practically a baby! Seems so harsh to send away a kid who is only just past the age of 2.

What?
It's fairly normal for 3 year olds to attend pre-school nurseries.
The days of kids being at home with mummy all day until school age are long gone.

She'll be at school this time next year if she's in England won't she? A year in preschool has been normal for donkeys to get set up for school.

Children start school at 3?? Really?

Or do you mean nursery?

This is awful. I've worked in nursery and if underwear is so badly soiled it would be binned. I can only assume there's been a mix up between staff and the bag you were given was meant to be put in bin at nursery. Sending it home suggests an element of shaming and making a massive big deal out of accidents. Absolutely not a good approach for learning. Sounds like an awful place. Formal and strict nursery, jings. How utterly tragic .

The while place sounds vile.

Both my DC went to a childminder and were given any help they needed with toileting, and if they had an accident the first we knew of it was when we picked them up and they were in their spare clothes and we were discreetly handed a bag containing the soiled ones (but no actual poo or wipes - that's grim!)

DD started pre-nursery attached to the state primary school when she was 2 and it was the same there. It was also a wonderfully nurturing environment and offered a really enriching curriculum including French and music lessons with the school's specialist subject teachers.

I would definitely pull her out and either keep her with the nanny or find another setting - and definitely don't discount the idea of state schools - I couldn't be happier with ours!

This isn't a decent nursery for your daughter or for you. I have a younger sis & a younger bro and I could tell you stories about their "toileting" and lack of, but it was always sorted out without the sort of situation you've suffered. She's THREE, not THIRTEEN, which they seem to be treating her as.

This

Fgs find a nice caring normal school

If they need childcare then put their children in a childcare setting such as a daycare nursery. I know parents use schools as childcare so they can work but that's not what schools are actually for.
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The OP has made a mistake thinking the pre school would support toilet training, but they won't and they did make that part clear before she enrolled by saying that DD can't have her potty there, which was the toilet training stage the child was currently at. They explained their toilet routine and it didn't involve potties at all or any support for DC to use the toilet or wipe themselves afterwards. I feel sorry for OP because she's paid for something unsuitable and I feel sorry for her DD because she's suffering in various ways from not being ready for the preschool and the effects of that. But I can also see it from the perspective of teachers who took a job teaching, not as carers and who don't want to deal with others bodily fluids on a daily basis. It's not actually the preschools fault that OP didn't listen to what they told her. Instead assuming that because it's common knowledge some 3yr olds struggle with toilet training then of course the preschool will help with that.
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I don't think it helps that people tend to think all education is a public service because the majority is provided by the state. It isn't. Any educational facility that isn't funded by the state is a business wanting to make maximum profits and retain good staff. The businesses service provided just happens to be education. Their loyalty is not to their customer but to themselves. They will make decisions that best suit them and the type of customer they want to attract.

‘3 years olds soiling themselves really isn’t normal or accepted within the independent sector.’

Oh I see. OP’s DC is just having accidents because they’re a pleb? I really didn’t know that potty training was a class issue. I guess, as a povvo who went to state school, I’m lucky I ever learnt to stop shitting my pants

Jeez what hope is there for an equal society when such attitudes persist. I’m sorry to say that. whilst money can buy lots of things, it can’t buy full errorless continence at just turned 3 years old.

I have found something similar. I think I potty trained my little one fairly early (before 2 and a half) but she has taken a while to fully take to it. I was able to keep trying with her, constant reminders etc then it seemed like she started nursery and she was expected to go into a toilet, pull down her trousers by herself, go to the toilet and wipe.

It’s just completely hit or miss now whether she comes out having had an accident or not. The staff haven’t once noticed if she has. She’s came out wet twice and having the start of a number 2 accident in her pants twice 🙈 One of the times she was wet it was as if it had happened hours before because she was absolutely stinking of pee. I’ve been quite horrified by the whole nursery toileting situation 😳 I see so many videos on YouTube about potty training saying they started aged 3 but I have no idea how that would work if they start nursery then!

You are in the wrong. Is this a prep school you intend your dd to attend? I imagine your DH's email questioning staff ratios didn't go down well either. If this is a school your will be at a few years, you need to work alongside staff, not view them as your staff.

They are having accidents because they are not fully trained, the OP has explained that. The reason for that could be starting to train later than others or could be they are struggling. The reason doesn't matter the OP will know why. The fact remains their school and others do not find it acceptable and require that child to be fully trained.

Ypu may not like that fact but it doesnt change it. State schools do not like it either however their obligations are different.

There has been plenty of discussions regarding the delay in toilet training in the press and teachers reactions. Being 3 and untrained is a new issue, lots of studies have investigated why they auspect due to the evolution of nappies the ease for parents and the comfort for the child. Adults now in their late 30s and 40s plus were trained by 12 / 18 months. None of this is a secret.

Read the equality act, its very clear within it why independent schools do not need to accept children who are not toilet trained. Schedule 13 is helpful, but as with all legislation extracts link to other sections so you will need to read around if you are genuinely wanting to understand this point.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/13

Normally pants that are so badly soiled just get binned by staff. They did at the nursery my DC attended anyway.

Thank you, I will. Is it your understanding that pre-schools or nursery classes of state schools (which may be committee run charities or school run or limited by guarantee or privately run, but eg paid for in whole or in part by Government childcare funding) DO have to but independent schools do not?

Jesus wept. What a dreadful sounding setting. I imagine it's fine for some children, but potentially very detrimental for others.

I hope you move your DD for her sake.

This thread is making me so VERY thankful for the wonderful nurturing early years settings we used for our children.

@Wonderfulstuff you’re right money doesn’t buy continence, it seems parents buy their children a classroom full of continent class mates! We had to keep our ds home for until he was 3.5 yrs (ex prem so lots of delays) but at least we saved a term’s fees and they held his place in a very oversubscribed school. Someone actually said to me “but you can’t possibly expect xxx Prep School to accept a child in pull ups!”

This, without hesitation

My eldest son was being potty trained when we had a home visit before he started nursery. We explained it was a work in progress and the teacher and assistant confirmed that they would regularly remind the children to go to the toilet and keep an eye out for children that looked like they needed to go.

The school had a 'no help' policy unless there was an agreed Intimate Care Plan in place.

He did pretty well and only had a couple of wee accidents during the whole year. There was, however, an incident where he did a wee in the playground. When we asked him why he'd done it, he replied 'but everybody else does it'.

Fair enough.

I read this thread yesterday and dreamed last night of putting some rubbish in a bin and accidentally touching some wet soiled trousers.. Mumsnet really does sink in deep, it seems. OP this is proof I reckon, that you definitely have our empathy!

Being 3 and untrained is not a new issue. There have always been children who are still works in progress at that age, and far beyond in some cases.

At a cohort level, the average age of toilet training may have gone up, and there are doubtless a range of social reasons for that, but I would seriously question whether most 30- and 40-somethings were trained at 12 to 18 months - I'm in my 50s and distinctly remember many, many children having accidents at school, and school started later then. I would also question whether any 12- to 18-month-old is actually trained, so much as having a well trained parent following them round with a potty and reminding them to use it every 5 minutes. If everyone has better things to do with their time now, then that's a good thing imo. Schools need to get with the times - especially schools that are charging the parents of 3-year-olds a small fortune to wear uniform and do a full school day.

I hope this morning's meeting wasn't too awful @ButterscotchWhip. Let us know how you got on if you can face it.

So many parents use schools for childcare, rather than the school's purpose -which is education.

The Op has chosen to send her child to the nursery class at an independent school, I guess for the education the school provides.

I would not be surprised if somewhere in all the small print in the terms and conditions that it states children are required to be toilet trained.

So many parents use schools for childcare, rather than the school's purpose -which is education

It's impossible to have education without childcare at nursery stage- don't be so pompous.