Nursery form teacher handed us a bag of poo

[ButterscotchWhip]

Right. I'll try to keep it short, but I don't think it will be.

DD has just turned 3. A couple of weeks ago she started in the nursery class of what I've now realised is quite a formal and strict girls' independent school. It is highly regarded locally, and me and DH loved it when we looked round, but I now fear I've done myself and DD up like a kipper sending her here.

She's fully potty trained but (my fault) I don't think I got her onto actual toilet training quickly enough. September has rolled around and she's just not 100% there on toilet training. I tell the staff this and they seem ok with it at first. I offer to send in her carry potty (which she loves and uses well) - they say no. The class is large, and the way they do toilet trips is to take a group to the loos and then the teacher stands nearby. It's just not enough support for DD, and she's had a lot of accidents there (for which we receive intense FIRST AID NOTIFICATION emails as they have to change her). Anyway, she's now never telling them when she needs to go, and she is running away from the loo at home saying she doesn't like the toilet (and started crying about it yesterday too).

We get an email from her form teacher this week saying she must now be in nappies during school time. DH emails back and says we certainly don't support this idea, she's on the right path but in a brand new environment, nappies will confuse her and send her learning backwards etc. He suggests that if this issue is one of a lack of resource / low levels of staffing, then that's a worry. He's not rude, just quite straight up.

The next morning at 9am, I receive a call from school saying DH must be collected and taken home for a bath as she's soiled herself AND they will not allow her back in school unless she's in pull-ups. I am not free to get her, neither is DH, but our son's carer/nanny is and happily collects her. She finds DD just needs a good wipe, not really a bath. Upon arriving at reception to receive DD, our nanny is given a binliner. It transpires this contains DD's soiled knickers, THE ENTIRE TURD, and all the wipes they have already used on DD's guilty bum (barf).

I haven't said anything in response to any staff yet as we already have a catch-up meeting, face to face, with the form teacher tomorrow. But presuming that they have a rubbish bin in school, I think the sh*t-bag might have been a thinly veiled message of hostility, no?

I am boggling from all this. Would genuinely love to hear what other MNers would do now!

I'm surprised that the school doesn't just bin poo soiled clothes- Bagged as biohazard.

Who wants poo clogged clothing back? No one.

If a child can't confidently use the lavatory, I'd say they aren't ready for school.

Which staff are employed to clean up otherwise?

But what difference would the nappy make...? The child still needs to be cleaned and changed.

I’m two children in and have used three private nurseries due to moving. Just 3 is incredibly young to be independently using a toilet all of the time. My daughter was dry at 2.5 but required help wiping her bum until 6!! My DS is 4 and still needs the same help. It doesn’t sound like a supportive environment for a 3 year old frankly. Much more risk in then fearing the toilet than regressing my using pull ups.

But I have also received a bag with poo in it - not the whole turd but an amount more than seemed necessary!

My son, at 2.5, was absolutely ready for pre-school. At rising 5, was able to read fluently and was a whizz at Maths, so was more than ready for Reception. He was educated at a time when a blanket standard of continence was applied, and that kept him out of the pre-school for months compared with his friends, and contributed to him having accidents in Reception.

I cannot accept ‘not potty trained = not ready for an educational setting’. That’s discrimination.

@ButterscotchWhip I think that this issue highlights the school's lack of understanding around childhood development, and child-centered learning. Aside from the toilet issue I would be very concerned that the school will not be able to provide your daughter with the education and care she deserves. Unfortunately, these sorts of schools are more common than you think. But that old-fashioned way is slowly getting stomped out (thankfully!). If this is how they approaching something in nursery, god knows what their approach and expectations will be further down the line. I'd honestly run a mile if I were you!

I think people are losing sight of the fact that OP's dd was reliably potty-trained before starting in this school's nursery class. Presumably that means that she was not soiling herself daily when she started there, and this is at least partly a problem of the school's own making.

If they had an adequate staff ratio and a caring approach, encouraging her through the transition from potty-trained to toilet-trained shouldn't have been a big deal, whereas whatever's happening instead seems to have caused her to regress to the point where wearing a pull-up is the only way to get her through the day without soiling. She's clearly not being allowed to go to the toilet on request but is expected to wait until the group go as a whole (e.g. at break), isn't being reminded/prompted to go often enough, and is offered no help with wiping. Regular soiling is also associated with constipation, which may also be to do with having to hang on inappropriately or she may not be allowed to access drinking water throughout the day.

All of this is just so inappropriate with this age-group, and if the school isn't willing to treat 3yos like the small proto-people they are, they really shouldn't be taking their parents' money. I bet a school like this has decreased the minimum age down and down over the last 10 or 15 years as a means to bring more money in, but it's not on if you're looking after little ones so badly that you're actually creating behavioural problems.

There would be no need for people to argue about whether teachers should have to clean up poo if this child's teacher had just encouraged/allowed her to use the toilet regularly. What was so much more important than that, I wonder? Latin declensions? Shakespeare? Junior United Nations?

Honestly, OP, take your money and run. It won't get better.

Should he, for example, have been excluded as ‘not ready for a Y6 residential’ because he wet the bed regularly until 11? (And despite getting the highest SATs levels then available) Continence should not define access to education or educational experiences.

Move your child to another nursery. Write a formal letter of complaint and report to Ofsted. The leaving the turd in the bag is petty, but the not properly wiping is unhygienic and a health hazard for the child. I'm 99% sure that a nursery failing to clean a child after an accident they clearly knew about would lead to serious questions about whether they should be allowed to care for pre-schoolers.

I'm sorry that you and your son had such a horrible experience. Your post is interesting - a child having toileting issues (physical) has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they are "school ready". Intelligence isn't measured by how well you can take a crap.

Toilet training my son remains the low point in my parenting experience with him. Teenage? A-levels? Pah, a joy in comparison.

And it really isn’t ‘my parenting’ - DD was trained by just over 2, dry at night well before 4 and thus almost 8 years younger than her brother..,.

In that case the child would surely be wearing pull ups at night or have an absorbent mat on the bed to enable them to access the same experiences as everyone else. No discrimination, just reasonable asjustments made to ensure they are included. This is what's happening here. The school are asking that because she isn't toilet trained, she needs to be in pull ups. She's not being excluded at all.

If she wets herself (which is probably the main issue given soiling has only happened once), it'll all be absorbed by the nappy so it will be much quicker to deal with. Easier to deal with soiling in a nappy too. It also contains the wee or poo and so is more hygienic for the other children as well as the adults and the child in question.

What has that highly dubious assertion got to do with this thread?

To be clear, I am not responding to the OP as much as I am replying to those who are saying ‘it’s a pre-school / a nursery class / private’ and saying that settings they know or use still (illegally) require children to be toilet trained before entry.

No setting should be setting toilet training as a pre-requisite for access to education.

DS wasn't toilet trained until ages 5 due to medical issues. Why should he be excluded from "compulsory" education over something outside of our control?

Not all schools are like this. It sounds hideous. Dd is currently at a lovely relatively high achieving private school. Children are helped with toileting up to year 1 if they need it and there's even been an accident so far in year 2. Teacher didn't bat an eyelid. Graciously helped wash and tidy child quietly, changed them and carried on with the day. Discretely gave their wet clothes back at home time. There an understanding everyone is different, mishaps can harken to anyone even when they are older and it's nothing to be embarrassed about. Compassion goes a long way in both helping in a tricky situation and modelling a good quality to have. I would be removing my child from a place like you have described. You can still do academically well surrounded by kindness and patience.

I think that there are several issues here

1. Unclear what you were told about potty training. My son goes to a prep in nursery of 2-3 year olds. They are clear that child does not have to be potty trained and will take them in nappies. However, they will not devote time to "training" them - they will properly sort accidents, as this is what 2 and 3 year olds do, but if they are still having accidents all the time they will request them back in nappies.

1. "Training" often means different things to different people. Some people think they have trained their child when they are following their child around catching them just before they have an accident through squirming or shifting foot to foot or taking them every hour. At my son's school, "trained" means relatively reliable and able to take yourself OR tell a grown up so they can take you. Nursery workers expect to help with wiping 2 and 3 year olds.

1. Group wees for this age group are absolutely crazy. Too young and way too formal. It is normal for a 2 or 3 year old to find a new setting with new people tricky for potty training

This entirely. Your daughter will end up emotionally damaged by these bizarre rules/processes. And the matter of the poo being returned to you/nanny needs to be formally reported to Education Authority; this borders on cruelty and cannot be allowed to happen

Omg I was going g to write nearly this exact msg.

It's disgusting behaviour on their part. They will end up damaging her and putting her into a regression if it keeps up. Your dc just needs some kindness and support.

This. Unlikely they will change her pull-up so it’s a terrible idea.

I would move my daughter, report them to Ofsted for their behaviour, they have now made her frightened.
I would also leave a bad review on their website and tell anyone who wants a nursery recommendation not to go there.

Move her.
Cancel your contract with them, breach of their conditions (or anything else)
report them and leave a lengthy review so no child gets the same treatment.
I would be livid!

Oh come on. They would need to take her trousers off to change a nappy anyway - putting a clean and dry pair on would take mere seconds longer!

We started at a school based nursery school, aged three, or at least our child did.
And every child had to be toilet trained to start.
It never was a day nursery where all ages attended.
I think you are being very unreasonable.
Your child should be toilet trained and out of nappies to attend this type of nursery.