How many kids do you know definitely leaving private for state?

[Quodraceratops]

I'd be very interested to know how many children people know of who are definitely leaving their private school for a state school - not people with plans to do so in future years, solely those definitely going now / in 2025.
For myself - large Scottish all years school, I only have knowledge of my early primary kids's classes - no-one leaving so far (but I'm guessing early primary may be less affected as Labour have been signalling this policy for a while so you wouldn't start if you couldn't afford VAT).

It's the commonest reason I've seen being cited. It's largely bullshit IMO.

It is not always the justification , mind you. Roger Scruton, a conservative academic, has always maintained that having grammar schools is not about social mobility, but is about the fact that civilization benefits from having an elite culture passed on and maintained. I don't agree, but appreciate the fact that at least he is honest.

My comprehensive school had good tailored teaching in the top sets, including amazing discussions, and I think it helps keep great teachers in schools when they have the experience of teaching the top-end learners, as you can have more proper "adult" level discussions that go above and beyond the curriculum, plus teachers love watching some of their pupils go to the top universities and the like after A levels. The difference is that, with the comprehensive system, the weaker students also get to benefit from the same great teachers. Late bloomers also have the chance to move up sets. Kids with spiky profiles are free to be in a high set for maths and physics and a lower one for the humanities, or vice versa.

Schools aren’t funded by results, and in fact your grammars and top comps get less funding than other schools because they usually have far fewer disadvantaged kids.

So I’m not sure why you’re equating ‘top comp’ with ‘well-heated’.

How many grammar schools are there that require you to pass the 11plus? Mumsnet users seem obsessed with grammar schools as if it’s the only way to get a decent state education.
I live in an area where the majority of children go to the local catchment secondary and we are fortunate to have 3 excellent state schools. It’s a rural area and most parents stick with catchments as transport is provided and rural public transport is sparse. Are the schools good because the majority of parents use them and each have a mix of children from all backgrounds?

Exactly.

We do happen to live in a grammar area but it is very rare.

There are a 163 in total.

I think certain private schools have located themselves nearby to mop up the ones that don't pass, so they are over represented in these discussions.

how many grammar schools are there that require you to pass the 11+

Answer: Five in our County, two girls, one boys, two Co ed.

That's 163 schools not areas.

176,000 pupils.

Super selective grammars are even less common than ordinary grammars though. Hence why it's a bun fight to get into that your very bright child from a background without switched on, pushy parents is unlikely to win.

I suspect your son's best friend may be from a family background that values education above all else, even if they barely speak English and live in a council flat.

Socially if you continue to scorn their classmates life could well be quite difficult for them.

It’s more likely to be the other way round. My step-daughter was bullied mercilessly for being posh.
However, as a poster said on another thread, that’s punching up not punching down, so that’s ok.

I’ve only taught in the state sector, but have always thought that independent schools are good to have to show an alternative model of education, one which isn’t constantly changing according to the government of the day’s whims.
My daughter will leave her private school for sixth form in state, the addition of VAT has made the cost of staying put seem too ridiculous. We had unexpectedly ended up going private for her as our available state secondary schools only allow you to do one arts subject at GCSE, and are also unpleasantly strict (she is very well behaved). Her brothers had a great education at a single sex state school, but she obviously couldn’t go there.

They are but they don’t have to be. There is no reason why you couldn’t have them spread out across the country.

We also need to make white working class people value education more, but I don’t know how that can be achieved.

Everybody knows, whether they are prepared to admit it or not, that grammar schools have absolutely no impact on social
mobility. Never have. Never will.

People who don't have children shouldn't get a rebate but that's not an accurate anology. The question should be, should people who don't have children pay more tax than everyone else to fund state education? No.

Unless you think private school parents get a rebate?

From observation on MN, the existence of grammar schools in any area seems to lead to ££££ for tutor companies, stress for the kids, stress for the parents, and the schools that aren’t grammars generally suffer.

There are many reasons why grammars shouldn’t spread across the country. But if people were desperate for more grammars, Theresa May wouldn’t have lost her majority as it was in her manifesto.

Well I am sitting here waiting whilst my DC does the Sutton grammar test. There are hardly any white people whatsoever. We were happy to import lots of ambitious migrants and let them pay loads of tax and work for the NHS and do all our jobs. But seems like we aren’t happy to give them more ot the educational opportunities they clearly seek! Remember pepole, the white middle aged man knows best and ya shall abide!
Thousands and thousands of DC apply, there is a ton of demand for superselective grammar!

Super selectives don’t impact local non-selective schools. Kids from over 70 feeder primaries attend my DC’s. Most of them would have attended different comps and one or two people not attending one comprehensive isn’t going to bring the whole school down.

As far as stress, yes some parents and children do get stressed but they also get stressed when they are in a school that doesn’t meet their needs. Parents get stressed trying to move to a different catchment because their local school is shit. I was stressed when my teacher friend told me not to send me kids to our local comp that she’d actually taught at.

And the Theresa May comment is ridiculous. She wasn’t voted out by the electorate. It’s a shame that the Tories got rid of her as she was far better than Johnson.

Best of luck to your DC.

And the Theresa May comment is ridiculous. She wasn’t voted out by the electorate.

She stood in the general election in 2017 on a manifesto that included a commitment to ending the ban on opening more grammar schools. This was the opportunity for comps across the country to convert to being grammars. The electorate did not grab this opportunity and instead of increasing her majority as she expected to do, she lost it completely and ended up doing a dodgy deal with the DUP.

There might be thousands of parents applying for the super selective, but by definition only a minority of them will be successful. That’s the whole point of them.

And do you think that VAT on school fees was the sole reason that Labour won the election?

Here’s what the BBC thought about why she lost votes https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40237833

It’s ridiculous of you to pin it on one policy.

In any event, a big section of the public don’t give a shit about education, that’s why working class white boys perform the worst academically. Doesn’t mean the ones that do care shouldn’t have the option for their really bright kids.

its funny that on here I see posts from people who are struggling financially, particularly renting. The advice frequently is to move to a cheaper area. No one mentions the trauma to the parent/child of probably having to move school. Or is that trauma only for PS kids.
If you work in a secondary you will see kids moved in and out for all sorts of reasons, family breakdown, violent parents, death, foster kids….
I’m not saying it’s not traumatic but there are thousands of kids moving schools for economic reasons every year, it’s not unique.

I live in an area of zero grammar schools. There might be one about 50 miles away I think. My dad went to one in the 1950s whilst living basically in squalor and got himself to uni. The other option for him was a technical school which didn’t concentrate on academic subjects. It is good everyone has that option now.

I might have considered a PS for DD if it had been an arts based/holistic place. The main PS near me is very big and brash and big on sports and it would be a disaster for someone like her.

And comps are a disaster for some kids, and grammars and privates (or a certain type of private school as there are lots of different ones)….it’s clear that one size doesn’t fit all but apparently that’s what we have to have to make us all “equal”.

I’m not pinning it on one policy, however the public had their big chance to bring back grammar schools and it failed. Theresa May was still prime minister after but didn’t pursue the grammar school policy despite it being in the manifesto, because it’s not a popular policy and she didn’t have the political capital to force it through.

It then was entirely absent from Boris Johnson’s manifesto, and from Sunak’s.

Despite what some parents think, people don’t want it. Even the Tories.

And Comp A is a disaster for some kids whereas Comp B and Private school C might be better, but Private School D would be worse.

And actually even the individual mix of children in a year, or a tutor group or a particular set of teachers will make a school "better" or "worse" for an individual child. My DC went to the same school, two years apart. Their experiences are poles apart.

So many factors influence whether a school is "good" for an individual.

We had first 6th form tutor evening recently and in my son's A level tutor group at his London independent school there are only 8 boys in his form, instead of the usual 10. Two boys who were expected to start in September simply didnt turn up because they'd got last minute grammar school places on the grammar school waitlist which moved at the end of august. Its a massively over subscribed school. Obviously offered to waitlist people but they declined, either because have already made other arrangements or have changed their minds due to the subsequent VAT announcement. Apparently the school have never, yes never!, had classes running with space except in the case of death or illness. There are 3 other 8 or 9 person forms in that year alone. That loss will be passed onto parents as part of the VAT pass on calculation. I dont see how this is sustainable, particularly for smaller schools.

The 2 famillies that went to grammar school havent incurred any financial loss btw by not giving the required term's notice, or not much, as the boys were on 90% bursaries.

Grammar schools had been one of Theresa May’s flagship policies and May lost her majority in 2017. The Queen’s Speech didn’t contain an education bill which would have expanded the grammar system as May and her government knew it was an unpopular policy that she couldn’t get through Parliament - many of her own backbenchers were against it, let alone the opposition parties.