Labour advised to finish closing all grammars

[twistyizzy]

Advice currently being given to Labour by same group that support VAT on private schools.

I am not for or against grammars. I teach in a grammar now and I have taught in secondary moderns, and comprehensives for decades, and even in private.

I don't really have strong feelings about whether they stay or go. I do have to point out that your post is inaccurate. Many children in grammars are not socially advantaged and privileged. Some may be, but many are not. In fact, many of our students are from very underprivileged back grounds. Equally, in comprehensives, I have taught many highly privileged children.

@TheCrenchinglyMcQuaffenBrothers
Kent.
So a fully selective County.
So NOT the case in all the other counties that do not have embedded selection.

In non selective counties, such a banding rules are not permitted

Anecdata is usually true, just not representative of the entire population.

But thank you for providing this data. I hadn't been aware this existed.

My impression is that lots of tutoring goes on to get kids into grammars. If they need tutoring, are they the cleverest - or just the luckiest?

There are lots of clever kids in comprehensives who do just as well, and often without the tutoring. And the grammar system is ancient history in most of the uk anyway.

We don’t have grammars where I live. They got rid of many many years ago. The world hasn’t ended and there aren’t many private schools either. The local schools are good, mixed and it is better for the community.

no, they are common in non selective counties

How do you know that? Have you done a survey? Grammars should become comps.

I seriously doubt it.

I went to a grammar, my DD seems so far like she would be grammar material, but I'm neutral about this. I had a lovely time at school as it happened to specialise in my favourite sport. The teaching actually wasnt that great, obvs everyone did well but realistically we would have done well anywhere. We actually didnt have a maths or chemistry teacher in y11 so jusy had a cover teacher read from a book.

Interestingly my school had the view that grammars worked best for people who would become nurses or teachers. They used to say that future neurosurgeons would do well anywhere but generally smart kids benefitted from the extra push.

This is a very old-fashioned myth

Ooh, you're near me - I was Wycombe High 🙋‍♀️ Doubt it will have that effect tbh, the catchment will become far smaller and house prices around the ex-grammars will rise substantially as they're likely to remain outstanding schools. At my grammar, we had girls from extremely wealthy backgrounds in the lovely Chiltern villages happily mixing with girls from extremely disadvantaged backgrounds from the rougher Wycombe estates in walking distance from the school (you probably know where I'm talking about!). Nobody cared about how big anyone's house was. You may find that house prices near Borlase's rocket (even more!) as the catchment shrinks. Although Great Marlow is still a good school so there may not be as massive a difference as there might be the other side of Wycombe, or elsewhere in the country. I can see a lot of people spending a vast amount of money to secure Wycombe High over Cressex, for example! The other point is that it's unlikely that Marlow prices have much to do with the grammar and more likely down to it being an extremely desirable town on the Thames reasonably convenient for London. You're very lucky to live there, even though it does come at a price :)

Actually, the research is not so clear cut and the a 2023 study was compromised by its methodology which places all of London as a non-selective area.

The reason parents tend to like grammars is they can give a world class education to their children without making them bankrupt. God forbid this country does anything to propel excellent students, of all backgrounds, forwards. Secondary education in the UK has just become a race to the bottom for political points.

Our kids will look back and despair at how bonkers we all were.

Where I live there are a couple of ex-private schools that became state comprehensives - and are both still massively popular and over subscribed.

World class education? Grammar doesn't have extra funding, what is the secret formula?

It’s not excellent students from “all backgrounds” though. That’s the issue.
Most excellent students have no chance at a grammar school because they live in the wrong region. Yes, I am talking about students that score more than high enough on the 11+ to get into a grammar, but the logistics of getting to one are simply impossible.

What do you want me to argue against? We don't know what Labour plan to do about school funding in the light of falling pupil rolls. They could cut it and put that money into the NHS - we don't know. So it's purely a what if, at this stage.

More pressing is the teacher pay rise for September. Gillian Keegan deliberately refused to announce what the independent pay review body recommended before the election, so we don't know what they have recommended, and if it is above 1-2% then Labour will have to either reject it, or find the funding for it somehow.

But what we do know is that they have pledged in their manifesto to put VAT on private school fees and use that money to fund various pledges for state education.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/labour-manifesto-2024-all-the-schools-policies/

If you select bright kids you get better results. It's not rocket science.

@thebluebeyond
Please link to the admissions page of a school that does banding in a Comp County
(Somerset, Hampshire, Sussex, Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgshire, Oxfordshire, Northamptonshire, Herefordshire, Shropshire, Northumberland, Durham, East Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Bedfordshire, Surrey, Isle of Wight, Cornwall, Hertfordshire, Bristol and Bath and other smaller LEAs)

We didn't have tutoring in my day, other than a free booklet from the council that mum went though with me. I believe things are very different these days, and why I'm not very pro-grammar despite having benefitted from one. I don't feel it's right that people should be able to purchase a better education, at least within the state system. But it also makes me wonder whether we shouldn't be focussing more on tutoring rather than the grammar system? What with buying houses next to excellent schools and expensive tutoring, surely the wealthy are still very much purchasing a superior education? I would much prefer to see grammar schools continuing and tutoring stopped so those that are naturally gifted benefit from a suitable education no matter their background. Ideally, I'd like to see tutoring stopped and comprehensives / secondaries brought up to the level of the grammars - and then we can stop the grammars as there'd be no point to them.

I'd like you to acknowledge that "using the proceeds from VAT for state education" is a meaningless statement as far as the the schools budget goes. Pledging to increase school funding either in real terms per student or in total would be meaningful statements, but they're not saying that. That statement is a spiritual sibling of Bojo's £350mm/week for the NHS, an empty promise.

I’m taking on average. Yes a small (not many) % of students in a grammar school won’t be privileged compared to a comprehensive school where a bigger (many) % of students won’t be privileged.

Grammar schools are
4x less likely to have students eligible for FSMs
6x less likely to admit SEND kids
7x less likely to admit kids in care
than a comp.

Grammar schools favour the higher classes.
Research for the UCL Social Research Institute, University College London found that access to grammar schools is highly skewed by a child’s socioeconomic status (SES) with the most deprived families living in grammar school areas standing only a 6% chance of attending a selective school. In contrast the most affluent families – the top 10% by SES – have a 50% or better chance of attending a grammar. While those pupils at the very top – the 1% most affluent – have an 80% chance of attending a grammar. Read an article summarising the research HERE or the full paper HERE.

This is not a controversial point, nor is it incorrect.

https://comprehensivefuture.org.uk/facts-figures-and-evidence-about-grammar-schools/

https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-have-a-long-history-of-being-dominated-by-middle-class-children-64198

I find it really quite rude when I am having a good rant if someone interjects with a series of facts, please try to refrain from it in future.

Did you know Angela Rayner sold a house and didn't pay tax?

fgs, it is completely standard, look for yourself if you care that much

They have specifically said what they would spend the funding on, how much and what for.

Meaningless for general school funding but they didn't say they would use it to increase general school funding.

How would you stop tutoring?