Labour advised to finish closing all grammars

[twistyizzy]

Advice currently being given to Labour by same group that support VAT on private schools.

Yes the irony isn't lost

Trying to ensure equality of opportunity for state educated children is not a 'race to the bottom'.

The bottom line for me is all the angst over 11+ tutoring. If parents really believed the sec mod system (also referred to as grammar system) was good, they would be equally happy whether their child was designated 'grammar ' or 'sec mod'.

The data doesn’t include private "Grammar" schools because the government don't have it.

Bright motivated learners, parents who prioritise education and push their children to succeed, a school culture that being a clever and successful is cool, high expectations, good behaviour.

Keir went to a grammar school which turned into a private school whilst he was there. The same school as Fatboy Slim

It appears that the primary influence comes from the family and the student, with less impact from the teacher and the school. Isn’t this achievable in any school?

The Catholic exams are actually far more ‘tutorable’ than the grammars

Fewer expensive sen kids.

Brighter children who can be taught in larger classes, no need for smaller classes for less able.

On average better off parents who can give more to PTA (speculation, but if you can afford the tutoring and the bus to next town, ...)

“OvertutoredMum · Today 07:53
If a grammar school is rated outstanding due to its excellent teachers, converting it to a comprehensive school shouldn’t affect its quality in delivering high standard education.”

That is incorrect. The teachers signed up to teaching that particular cohort and to that level. It is a different experience for the teachers who chose that particular job, in that particular school.

The problem was never grammar schools. They were targeted, but the problem was under investment in Secondary Moderns for children not at grammar schools and, in some places, pressure on grammar school places creating a massive gap between the two types of school. With enough grammar school places and really good education for children who do not want or suit a grammar school style of education, there wouldn’t be an issue. It was the same with polytechnics. This snobbery that they were lesser than traditional universities was misplaced. In Germany they still have the grammar school system and their most competitive, top performing university is the technical university (polytechnic) in Munich.

You're correct that, in the short term, the teachers are unlikely to change suddenly. In the long term, teachers will change and, if the students become more difficult or less pleasant to teach, for any reason, teachers who have a choice and prefer to teach better behaved, higher achieving students might no longer prefer to go there.

Some state-funded teachers decided to teach the easier cohort, leaving the other students to be handled by other teachers, also state funded. No wonder we have a teacher recruitment crisis.

Quite. What with that and his wife tripping off to the race and NATO when she's a "NHS worker", it's almost like you can sense hypocrisy.

It isn't. Having been to both the difference is not about social segregation, in actual fact I think you will find grammar schools have an under representation of white middle class kids relative to the areas they serve.

Stats show disadvantaged Asian children are proportionally three times more likely to attend a grammar school than middle class white children, disadvantaged Indian children four times more likely etc.

Far from being socially segregated!

Another bullshit argument and assumption debunked.

This!!

You can’t compare comprehensives in grammar areas to comprehensives in non-grammar areas. The existence of the grammars skews it.

“Some state-funded teachers decided to teach the easier cohort, leaving the other students to be handled by other teachers, also state funded. No wonder we have a teacher recruitment crisis.”

Be that as it may, those people are still doing a socially useful job for not that much pay. When we looked at schools originally years ago, the heads of department at the grammars were a similar demographic and educational background/class as those in the local private school. And there were more men. These people will not switch to comps with worse behaviour and academic standards. It isn’t what they want. We as a country will just lose more teaching staff.

Why do people begrudge teachers wanting a nicer and safer working environment in private or grammar schools?

If all state-funded schools in an area had a similar mix profile of students, would there still be any general incentives for teachers to move? Wouldn’t this model make teaching more flexible /fungible and ensure a good standard and effective education delivery across all school?

I think they should be wiped out and replaced with decent comprehensives. As a parent of two very different children, I’m so grateful that we don’t live in a grammar area - going to separate schools due to academic selection would have been a horrible thing for my less able dd to go through. Comprehensives are a fantastic concept and I can’t believe that the archaic system of the grammar v secondary modern still exists in some places.

My dad went to a grammar school and I won’t deny that it was a huge benefit for him but that was back in the day before mainstream state schools became comprehensives. I’ve no doubt he would have done just fine in a modern day comprehensive school.

Teachers have the right to a safe and healthy environment, but preferably not at the detriment of other teachers.

The claim is that, currently, grammar schools may have better teachers than non-selectives in the same area because they are a "preferred destination" for teachers because of the current student mix. If this changes, they may no longer be a preferred destination and the teaching may become more homogeneous, so the "better" teachers aren't concentrated in a few schools.

I think many people believe this would be a desirable side-effect of eliminating selective schools.

Wouldn’t this model make teaching more flexible /fungible and ensure a good standard and effective education delivery across all school?

It might even out the standards, but some people would have you believe that these "good" grammar school teachers might not be effective if they have to deal with "more difficult" students.

Who needs the best teachers?
Well everyone of course, and different teachers have different approaches/skills.

Though I think you could argue that to GCSE level, bright children are capable of a fair bit of self teaching / filling in gaps, whereas middle / less able ones really need a teacher to get across the subject.

It appears that teaching in a school with mixed-ability students requires more diverse teaching skills in a "less desirable" environment. Therefore, one possible solution could be to pay those teachers more and grammar school teachers less to balance things out.

The teaching unions will be conflicted on this one?

So we have 5% of DCs still in grammars and 6-7% of private school kids (but actually a higher proportion of teachers there because the teacher:pupil ratio is greater than in the state sector).

So these teaching unions are meant to get onside with a Government policy affecting 14% of their members? What is the exact figure? What is the legal position?

All these anti grammar/anti private/pro comp think tanks - surely they just give rise to pro private/pro grammar think tanks? They have already created a private school activism brigade. What next?

What is the role of social media twitter, now MN as well and many others on Education Policy? Would they have gotten rid of grammars in the 70s if there were social media? All interesting questions.

A friend of mine is a PE teacher by training but in SLT now in a school in a really deprived area where aspirations for their kids are a massive challenge. He specialises in focused teaching of the year 10/11s who need to get that 4 in English and Maths to get into college. He gets amazing results - he basically gets that for them this is a total box ticking exercise for the future, and they respond to a teacher who ‘gets’ them. You wouldn’t want him teaching the top sets in a million years, and he wouldn’t do it, but it’s the right approach for these kids.