has anyone had a Steiner education?

[forest]

I am very interested in the Steiner way of teaching and think it would be great for young children. However, I am not sure how good it is for older children as it doesn't focus on exams and I wonder if that would be a disadvantage. Has anyone been educated the Steiner way and could tell me more about it?

No I quite agree. The key issue is that the child gets to do it when they want to. For Dd it was the right time, and she was not pushed in any way. Her number skills are not ahead of her age, but she has strong language skills. This is part of the reason that I could never HE, my MFL skills (and those of Dh) are almost non-existent. And we also did ots more than just the craft stuff, but she was so bored before the reading started.

Funnily enough, as a child I seemed to annoy my teachers at a 'normal' primary school because I could read well and they couldn't claim any credit for it! I was told off severely several times in my school career because teachers didn't believe I had done work by myself. I suspect that the school culture that actually believes children are a bit rubbish and can't do anything unless they are pushed and bullied still exists. I'm not really looking forward to ds going to school both from what I remember and what I see other people's children going through. On the exams question, I didn't learn a thing in the whole of my primary and nearly all of my secondary education that I couldn't have learned much better by myself just by reading. I think my teachers hindered rather than helped me and they certainly couldn't claim any part in any academic success I had, IMO. I think it is telling that my one year A levels were better than my two year ones - the more teaching I had, the worse I got! The more I think about school the more brutal and nasty I remember it as! Teachers who were sarcastic and cruel, the unbelievable nastiness of the playground bullying and taunting.... There may be social advantages to school but there are some pretty devastating disadvantages too!

I remember one plain, podgy child of older parents (unusual in the 70s) who was psychologically tortured every day. Her life was hell. She got more and more desperate and strange and never really got over it, I think.

anais - not me who's making the geog offers - it was susanmt My geog is def not up to that.

While I agree that the situation you describe does still exist, things have changed in teaching. I had my end of level report from my tutor today (I am doing a PGCE) and one of the points that she made is that I need to concentrate on 'Peer teaching'. That is you teach different aspects of a subject to different groups of children and they 'teach' each other. That never happened when I was in school. And if I was seen as 'Pushing and bullying' children I would be failed. There are also schemes where children set their own goals, and mark and peer review their own work. The work has been started by Paul Black and published in 'Inside the black box', which you can get on the Internet. If you are interested I can chase up the website. This is not to try to dissuade you from HE, but just to give you some more info on what is changing in schools.

Oh, and I was that plain and podgy child I was badly bullied in the junior school, but I loved school, as it gave be the chance to learn, and do do things that my parents had no experience of.

Aloha, but would that podgy, plain child have been any less strange being kept at home by her older parents? Agree that kind of thing is one of the more horrible aspects of school, but aren't many of them a bit more enlightened about things like bullying nowadays?

Sorry, hmb, overlapped with your post!

hmb- in my experience in the classroom attempts of children to teach each other are usually fairly disasterous. I have taught in some fairly strange situations mind you. I'd be interested to know if that actually works in practice. (Not saying it doesn't- I'd just be interested to see it).

aloha- I remember starting school and being able to read. You were meant to sit at different coloured tables depending on what books you could read. I wasn't allowed to go onto the pink table as I hadn't read the right books and had to stay at the yellow table with all the non-readers. Then one day my class teacher was away and the stand-in had me up at her desk reading all the "right" books for about 2 hours. So I bypassed the blue table and the green table and went straight onto the pink table! And I enjoyed school!! Good God!

Actually it's the petty rules of school that make it so intolerable for so many autistic children.

Sorry SueW, it was late, I was tired, I'd had a drink....urghhh, wasn't concentrating!! Apologies to SueW and SusanMT!

Please don't send me to detention...

Hmb, I would be interested to see the link you mention.

hmb- you may be able to answer something that has been puzzling me for a while.

I've heard from a number of people that Maths lessons are a particular problem for autistic children as it's all done by group work now. Is this the peer teaching you mentioned? Is this how Maths is taught these days? (my experience is a secondary level- especially A level so I'm not very up on current methods in the earlier years). IS it actually true that it's all group work? If so I can see that would be a huge problem for DS1. It just wouldn't work at all. I've always assumed it's broadly true as I've heard it from a number of different people- I've just never understood exactly what they meant.

Rosiet I think odd an unusual children can still have a terrible time with bullying. I have heard story after story on my autism lists of the most appalling bullying. And not just from the other children either- frequently other parents, and occasionally teachers can be just as bad.

Of course as in everything some schools are better at dealing with bullying than others.

Children can be bullied and teased for all sorts of things. I put up with terrible teasing because my name rhymed - I'm sure this is why I turned out so shy.

I have an adult cousin who is autistic and he simply can not tolerate company for any length of time. I remember at his parent's silver wedding (he must have been about 21 I guess) he had to go and stand outside with his "mentor" for periods of time. He used to attend a special school and now I believe he is in sheltered accomodation where he is is happy and "blossoming".

Mainstream schooling woud have been impossible for him.

Anais, I'll have a look around tonight when the children have gone to bed and will post ASAP.

Re the Maths issue, I'm not sure what the answer is as I am a science trainee and not a maths teacher (Thank goodness!). The thing that struck me in teaching practice was how much classroom activity is now 'small group work', that is groups of kids set to solving a problem, doing a practical, researching the answers to a series of questions etc. In science you often have a circus of different activities all going on at once, and the groups move around (a nightmare for your son or any child with ASD). This sort of small group work almost never happened when I was is school in the 70s. I think that it all stems from changes in learning theory that now stress the 'social constructivist' aspect of learning, i.e. kids can learn from everyone, not just teachers. For what it is worth I am also unsure of how well getting children to teach each other will go. I think that it will have its place, but the key will have to be very close supervision, and a good basic structure to the lesson.

I had a chance to work with some students with aspergers, and one of them found the level of sensory stimulation almost impossible to cope with. I do feel that inclusion at all cost is not the way to go, as children are being denied the sort of specialist teaching that they need to develop to their full potential. In my more cynical moments I see it as a cost cutting measure dressed up as equal rights. And the children who need the greatest help are being penalised.

Anais, It didn't take me as long to find it as I had thought.

Try
www.pdkintl.org/kappan/kbla9810.htm

HTH

Actually Rosie, I think she might well have been a happier, less damaged adult. At least adults aren't so overtly vile. It's not often someone in an office is literally surrounded by a group of their colleagues who are abusing them! Children have a horrible knack of hitting on the very thing that will hurt most. I don't think her social problems were caused by school, but it certainly didn't help.

hmb- I've been thinking of the problems I've encountered with pupils teaching each other. The first is that to teach a particular topic you really have to understand it well yourself. The studen't don't always. This either leads to them giving up on trying to explain, or not realising they don't know what they're talking about and insisting that black is white! Another problem is with tone. Often the "teacher" is simply too bossy! I've also found that the "teacher" can become very frustrated when the "pupil" fails to get it, and then not have any other ways of explaining it. Think of teaching osmosis for example- it may need to be explained in several different ways, but the "teacher" may not have the capabilities to do this. That isn't to say that it couldn't be a useful exercise at times.

I teach on a Science chat room some evenings. I often find that the students have absolutely no idea why they've done a particular experiment or what it's meant to show. They are often seriously lacking in the theory (and the text books to read up on the theory). Could this be a result of the circus type approach to Science teaching? I'm not saying it is I'm just wondering. The number of times I've been asked something along the lines of "I did something with some potatoes and I got a graph- what do I write?"

The small group stuff is worrying. Pleased I've made the decision to HE. Small group work would be impossible for DS1 on so many levels. He currently attends nursery 4 mornings a week, but we have a "special time" for 30 minutes - 1 hour every day. This is fairly structured work/play/speech therapy done at the kitchen table. I know from that how something as small as dropping something can totally throw him out. To deal with other children doing things "wrong" would be almost impossible. I'll keep him at nursery until the term after he's 5- I just wish he could stay there longer.

The inclusion issue is a real problem for children with ASD. A problem for the schools as well as I don't believe the majority are able to cope. It's a disgrace, and yes the decisions are financial. It's going to be a problem though as the numbers are increasing all the time (and we'd better not get into reasons for that- lol).

Sorry, Aloha. My point wasn't that she'd have been better off going to school, but that things like bullying have improved in many schools since the seventies thanks to more enlightened attitudes.

I agree with all of your concerns re pupils 'teachers'. In fact the lack of expertise would be my reason for not wanting to HE Regarding the problems with circus work, I also agree that children often have little or no idea why they are doing things, or how the practical fits into the subject that they are studying. And this is true of all practical work, not just circuses This is another 'hot topic' in science teacher training. In addition there is also the area of confronting a child's preconceived ideas as to how things work. For example most children will tell you that plants get their food from the soil. Give them a few classes on photosynthesis and they may start to give the correct answers, leave them for a few weeks, ask the question again, and you get told, plants get food from the soil.

To me the major reason for all of this is the massive pressure that you are under to get the children through the NC. Everyone needs more time to make things clearer.

rosiet- I don't think that's true unfortunately. Certainly not if the stories I've heard are anything to go by.

hmb- IMO the NC is a disaster in terms of educating children- and Sats have made the situation worse. Children seem to be expected to remember a list of facts as they are on the exam, but they don't seem to have the understanding they need to see why they should know that fact. IYSWIM. That's a big advantage of HE and Steiner- no NC or sats pressure.

Well, people always seem to keener to talk about 'bad news' stories than 'good news' ones, particularly when it comes to ordinary state schools. My nephew has an autistic spectrum disorder and is in a mainstream inner-city school which he loves. Yes, he has had a few problems with being picked on, but on the whole, the school seems to have dealt with the problem very well and he obviously feels able to cope with the inevitable problems his condition will attract, which I think is positive for everyone. Obviously not everyone's experience is the same, but it does happen.

rosiet- he's exceptionally lucky then, and I know of many people who would be beating a rapid path to the door of that particular school. If he's in primary school I hope it continues into secondary school. I know a lot of people (especially those with AS) where infants and sometimes juniors is OK before secondary becomes a bit sticky. I have to say that I have yet to meet an ASD adult (high functioning/AS of course) who enjoyed their school days. I've asked them directly and every single one has said they would have preferred HE. Of course things have changed since then, although probably not enough (of course there are some schools such as your nephews who sound like they are doing a very good job).

I'm considering sending my DS to the Steiner school which has just started in Wandsworth. I went to an open day there a couple of weeks ago, which included some sample lessons, which I was very impressed with. The class sizes there are very small which really appeals to me, but they don't have the outside space which Steiner schools elsewhere might have - they currently rent some rooms on the top floor of a state school and have a tiny patch of "garden", which doesn't strike me as adequate but is probably as good as any state school in the area.

My main problem with it is the fear that he will be understimulated - he is very bright and my own natural inclination is to help him to learn to read etc as soon as he seems ready - he is already showing an interest in numbers and letters (he turned 2 this month). They also mentioned that they don't have computers, which I'm in 2 minds about too - great in that he won't be one of these kids stuck in his room playing computer games for hours on end, but could be a huge disadvantage to him in the long run. I was also unsure about the limitation of activities in the nursery - they have a set activity on each day of the week, eg Monday may be painting, Tuesday cooking etc. At my Mum's nursery (she's a nursery head in the state sector and came with me to the open day) the children have a choice of activity at any point in any day - the paints, library, play-dough, bricks etc are always available and the children make their own choices about what they do. The total lack of books, etc, for the children seemed very strange to me.

He has always been a quiet child - an observer rather than a doer - who doesn't tend to join in with group activities etc (he doesn't enjoy Tumble Tots at all, apart from getting the sticker!), and in many ways I do feel he would benefit from the Steiner approach, small class sizes etc. And I think he will learn to read and continue to enjoy books outside of nursery / school. So I'm really torn.

NQWWWW

I know several children who are being educated at Steiner schools. I think you really have to look at your child and see what would suit them. One of these children is very competitive and sports mad and IMO probably would have been better off at a high achieving private school or hothousing state. Steiner don't 'do' competition and I feel she is being held back. That said she is happy at her school. Another one is a real actress and 'floaty' and I feel the school really suits her.

I do feel that some parents (and I'm not speaking for you here !) have an idealised view of childhood and Steiner education matches this.

In your situation I can't see that going for it at 2 would be a problem but it does seem difficult to get out of once you get in. I'm not in London but surely there are some good state playschools/nurseries?