has anyone had a Steiner education?

[forest]

I am very interested in the Steiner way of teaching and think it would be great for young children. However, I am not sure how good it is for older children as it doesn't focus on exams and I wonder if that would be a disadvantage. Has anyone been educated the Steiner way and could tell me more about it?

True, but I was sort of following on from the idea of using the night school oprion for GCSEs and A levels. Even teacher training materiel accepts that children learn from a variety of sources (Vigotsky and all that stuff). He aslo points out that children also learn from other learning. My tutor has been pointing me in this direction over the last term.

Should have read children learn from other children. Sorry!

Jim Jam the reasons Hedders give for not being at school seem to conflict, e.g. on the one hand you say you don't want your child to take exams at school, on the other hand you say its ok to take courses and exams at evening class. What's the difference?? in fact its worse because in evening classes they are more likely to be working with much older students. Which once again removes them from contact with their peers. One year is a big difference in children under 18. All children want to be with others their own age.

And why am I against it? I'm against it in the same way as people are against things they think will adversely affect/deprive a child, any child, just because its not my own I still feel worried for it!

And Jim Jam you seem to be dead set against the formality of a law education! Surely all of us turn around at some point and wonder how the hell we ended up in our stuffy jobs, and that we should have done something more fun and less stressful like gardening or pottery. But there's nothing to stop us doing that now, but we don't tend to do we? so I'm sure that even if Hedders succeed in turning out arty 'stress-free' children, they will still turn around in their thirties and whish they'd done something else with their lives, its human nature and nothing to do with sending your child to school!!

I haven't read through all this but wondered if anyone else had heard the Radio 4 programme on home educated children that was on before Christmas?. I was surprised to hear that most of the children who were home educated had a negative view of it and wouldn't choose it for their children. Many of them spoke of intense boredom and some commented that it left them ill equipped for "mainstream" life. I had expected to hear a more positive programme.

Well everyone home eds for their own reason. In my case I'm not anti exams, I've gathered enough of them in my time, and I've taught at a tutorial colege where the sole purpose of being there was to take exams. I am anti exams being mistaken for education though. Schools have changed a lot since we were there (and I'm only 32). I spend every Tuesday on a chat room where the main topic of converation is how stressed they all are becuase they have SATS/GCSE/AS's/A2's. Exams are fine providing they're not all you do.

No I'm not against law at all. What I meant is if you have a bright child, unless they have their own ideas, or opportunities to explore lots of different careers they tend to end up as an accountant/lawyer/whatever professional. If they make that decision on an informed basis fine. If DS2 is like his parents he'll be academic. I'd much rather he looked at other things than just the traditional professions. If he decided he wants to persue a profession then fine we'll be behind him 100%, but I would like him to realise there are other options.

I still think you make a huge assumption when you say that the child will be deprived. Without knowing the child, the parents, how the child will be HEdded, and which school would be the alternative, you are in no position to say that someone is depriving their child. The difference between DS1 and his normally developing peers isn't that great. He could "cope" in mainstream school as he's compliant and fairly quiet. So why is Anais depriving her child, while I'm doing what's best for mine? Surely the difference between them isn't that great? Couldn't she be doing what is best for her children in her circumstances?

I agree with what you're saying hmb. A lot of HEdders would like easier access to nightschool/local colleges. It can be good to learn in a classroom environment, especially for studying exam based subjects (you can compare notes-lol). Unfortunately it can also be quite difficult to get access until the children reach 16.

I don't think HEdders are all against exams (some may be). If they do have an exam issue, it's probably a bit like mine- just that there is far too much testing in schools these days. Children have less opportunity to explore topics that interest them as schools are so tied to the National Curriculum (not the schools fault). HE allows a flexibility that school doesn't.

I think all this talk of depriving your child is a load of rubbish. As a mother I am sure you make sure your child is receiving the best education. For some people this means sending their children to private school, boarding school, state school or HE. You could claim that any of these forms of education could deprive a child. Private school deprives children of interacting with non-rich kids, boarding school deprives a child of his parents, state schools vary so much that you could be deprived of any number of things (good teachers, day trips etc.), HE deprives you of a formal education. So surely it becomes your choice as a parent to decide how to educate your child in a manner that you feel comfortable with.
How many parents move to a catchment area of a good school as they don't want their precious bundle to go the c**p school round the corner. Isn't this exercising your choice of how you want your child educated?
Everyone is affected by their education - some of you loved school and others hated it. This has coloured your opinions of what another person wants to do. I believe the people on here that are into HE have done plenty of research into it and are not doing it just because they hate school.
We should remember children are people so we should respect and listen to them so rather than telling them what to do we guide them.

Well said forest

I started looking into HE for DS1 as I can't see any other choice. That research has taught me a great deal about HE. It can have an awful lot going for it, for any child. Everyone makes their own decisions.

Right Lil, first of all, steady on, ok. I find the tone of your posts unnecessarily confrontational. Please at least have the common courtesy to respect my ability to make choices for my children.

To suggest that children grow up in a 'parental bubble' is absurd, and frankly, offensive. Do you actually know anything about HE children? Have you ever met any? Or are you merely basing your comments on ill-informed stereotypes? I have spent a great deal of time looking at all the different options for my children's education. I started by trying to find a school, but wasn't happy with any of the options. Private schools wouldn't be something I would consider even if it was an option, and I can't afford alternative schools. I didn't just set out with some airy fairy ideas about my children not going to school.

My kids will get a decent education. School maybe an easy option. You drop them off at the gates, collect them 6 hrs later, 5 days a week for 11 years and if something goes wrong well at least there's someone else to blame. I am preparing to devote a big part of my life (when most people are preparing for time away from thier kids)to ensuring that my kids get a good education.

The 'irresponsibility' of allowing my child to dicatate what he wants to learn, is about allowing him to choose his own way in life. Children, and anyone else, for that matter, learn better when they are doing something that interests and excites them. It is down to the parent to ensure that they get a balance.

You say how can a child of 8 or 9 know what he wants to do as an adult. Who's saying he has to? Is a child of, is it 11? taking his options for gcse any better equipped to know what he wants to do with his life?

Who said you let a child off if they don't like a subject? You maybe let them take a break and reintroduce the subject when the child is ready, or you reassass your methods and try to make the subject more appealing. Inschool you don't have the luxury of adapting the pace and level of the teaching to eachindividual child.

Using myself as an example, I was in hospital aged 7 and missed a whole term of school. Maths was never a strong point, but after I went back, having missed some crucial, basic maths I never caught back up. I was never offered any extra help. Everyone carried on from where they were and I just got completely bogged down. I frequently wasn't able to finish work as I struggled and took much longer than anyone else. And this was in a small, village school, which is considered one of the best inthe area.

Where did I say I don?t have any academic qualifications? I went to college aged 14 and worked hard to gain some qualifications. I was taking my A?levels when I got pg with ds. I took (and passed) an intensive 1year A?level English exam, when I was 7 1/2 months pregnant. And I am still studying ? last year I passed A?level art (8 months pg) ? and I will continue to do so for as long as it gives me pleasure. It is never too late to learn.

Although having said that, there is no reason that any child can not take exams if that?s what they choose. They have the advantage of having the pressure off, and being able to do exams in their time, at their pace.

This obsession with peer groups is something which comes entirely from school. Whenkids are in school they are with one age group all the time and this is the reason they find it hard to relate to people of other ages. HE children, who get the opportunity to mix far more widely, find it much easier to join in with children of all ages and adults.

I try my best not to tell my kids what to do all the time. I aim to guide them to take responsibility for themselves and learn to make mature, responsible choices. Not just the obedient minions of a dictator, that?s not how to prepare them for the real world.

HE is certainly not about ?protecting your precious child from the big bad world.? It is about doing what I feel is best for my child, to give him the very best start in life.

?You are telling all of us mothers on mumsnet that your child is somehow different from ours, better off away from us and 'the system', better off being 'indoctrinated' by you his mother.? I am doing no such thing, and I am certainly not ?indoctrinating? my children.

You say I am naive because you don?t like the choices I have made. Well, I?m not the one criticising other peoples decisions. You don?t know me, you don?t know my children, so please don?t tell me I don?t know what I?m doing. You are lecturing me on something you blatantly know nothing about. Your views are based on ill-informed stereotypes. If you want to make informed comments then I will happily point you in the direction of some sites where you can learn a little about what you are judging.

My this has got heated hasn't it? I have a LOT of issues with current conventional education, but won't HE my ds because, amoung other reasons, I like and need to work and, frankly, am hoping that he will go to a decent state school so I can have some free at the point of delivery childcare! But I happen to disagree that children don't know what they want to be when they grow up. I read some research that said the happiest adults were the ones doing something close to their childhood dream/hobby/passion. As a young child (primary school) I wanted to be a writer, which I am. I wanted to write children's adventure stories, actually, and I still harbour that dream. I also think it isn't necessary for children to spend all day, everyday with children of the same age. I think contact with other ages teaches compassion and care (for younger ones) and helps younger children learn from example and experience of older ones. I didn't have a particularly happy home life, but didn't much care for school either! I have one friend from my schooldays. I made nearly all my friends from work, and they are of different ages. I've never met an HE educated adult and would love to hear from one.

Sorry for the venom in my last post. I have calmed down a bit now, and I'm sorry I posted when I was feeling quite so riled.

I do resent being called irresponsible and naive by people who don't know me, but hey, live and let live, right?

Bells2 - I was interested to see your post although I think someone had earlier mentioned the prog you refer to. However, I think you have previously mentioned, on another thread, your Australian education which included a wider curriculum than most might expect?

WRT to paying exam fees in private schools - the system must have changed since I was at school since I'm pretty sure my parents didn't pay the fees for my exams. I did attend a private school but was on a 50% bursary so may have been outside the norm.

Private schools - even private schools differ. Although most private schools are reigstered charities (tax reasons?), I understand that there is a variable range of charitability. Some truly believe that the child's education should be uninterrupted and if the parents fall on hard times, there are subsidies available. Others are run more like businesses and if you can't pay the bills, you're out!

Steiner ed fees - I believe that our local Steiner school has the policy that you pay what you can afford rather than fixed fees. I hope this means that people genuinely pay what they can afford and not the rich get away with the minimum they can by talking to their accountant.

Sorry, very old gripe coming out there about 6th form classmates boasting about how they would get max grants for uni because dad's accountant made sure he didn't earn very much when their grant applications went in.

this is very interesting, have to agree with aloha about the childcare issue. as parents we would all like our children to grow up and achieve their dreams, sadly in most cases its just not an option. in my adult life i couldnt imagine getting any of the jobs i have had with no qualifications, in fact to study professionally as an adult through work is positivley encouraged on top of whatever qualifications you may already have. i dont understand how in our society, in most jobs would employ someone without formal qualifications even if they may well be the more rounded of children with a bredth of knowledge that most others do not have chance to get. i dont see how children would grow up and get a good mainstream job. even if it wasnt their ambition in life to be stuck behind a desk , as am sure it wasnt any ones ambition! people take those jobs because they need to for various reasons.
i am not happy with the current education sustem either and suppose if i could stand to stay at home with my children - which i seriously cant! and had the means to do so i would seriously consider home education, am convinced i could teach my kids more in one day than they learn all week.

Yes SueW my Aussie education was at an agricultural girls boarding school where we effectively ran our own farm. So it was literally everything from decapitating chickens, castrating calves and cutting goats' toenails as well as all the normal academic stuff. It was set in 100 acres with amazing sports facilities and we all had a ball with little bitching and absolutely zero interest in boys / make up etc even at 17. Most of us are still good friends even now and my former class mates include Olympic gold medallists, entrepreneurs and of course, loads of farmers.

When I went and visited the schools in my area in London (both State and Private) I was left in tears by the physical conditions. Many of them had no outside space whatsoever and all were cramped with classrooms offering little natural light.

This has been such an interesting discussion - absolutely fascinating to hear anais's plans (you are so brave, anais - I found my old maths o'level paper the other day and could not make head nor tail of it! I am already panicking about helping dd with her homework in years to come, can't even begin to imagine teaching it all to her - and I did really well in maths!).

I have to agree with custardo that I can't think of any job that doesn't require qualifications. And I speak from the 'arty stress-free' (hah, your joking - my job can be hugely stressful, except when I'm on mumsnet of course) professions - I work in an art gallery and dh is a professional artist. Neither of us would be where we are without o'levels, a'levels and degrees (3 in my case). We don't even let people volunteer to help at the gallery without a'levels. To some extent the arty world can be more reliant on qualifications simply because of the huge competition for jobs.

I'm not a huge fan of our current education system, although I do think it has its strengths. But I think anais's point about just dropping your kids off each day at school as the easy option is very true - I think too many people abdicate all responsibility for their children's education onto the teacher, when surely as a parent you should be doing everything you can to supplement what they learn at school?

Bells 2 - come to Nottingham. DD's school is set in 46 acres MInd you, the state school across the road has almost as much space.

One thing I didn't like about London - and I did love living there - was that most schools and nurseries really only had a concrete yard for the children to play in with maybe a small square of grass.

Come to think of it, I think I did learn more in one day from my mum than from a year of lessons in school. She helped me learn to read because I was so book mad and I read like a maniac well before I went to school - in fact, I was accused of lying about having finished my very boring reading book until I read it back to the teacher in five minutes flat in a very contemptuous tone! She also took me round art galleries, to the theatre and to all the museums as a kid. I even remember most of this. I saw Nureyev dance, saw the Mona Lisa etc etc at at very young age. I think I might even have found maths easier had I not loathed & feared my horrible teachers so much. I am pretty sure that I could have done my a levels without doing O levels first. I took two of my a levels at the local college in a one year course, and did much better than in the A levels I studied for for two years at school, so maybe it is true that HE'd children can go on to college/sixth form and catch up with 'normal' kids quite easily. Still not doing it though!

Anais if you don't mind me asking, as a single parent how will you support your family while you are home educating them?

I'm finding this discussion extremely interesting ? lots of people have made excellent points on both sides of the debate, and I fully agree, it's a very personal choice.
We're still not absolutely decided on where ds will go to school, although I know I won't be HE'ing ? not because I don't 'approve' of home education as such, but because I don't feel I'm the right person for the job. Much as I love ds, I feel that my trying to educate him at home would be a bit like your husband trying to teach you to drive.
What I do disagree with is the HE evangelists telling us that there is everything right with HEing and everything wrong with sending your child to school. I still maintain, anais, that it isn't true that there is no social advantage to going to school. Ds will probably go to the local community school, which is very much part of our local community ? half the kids in our street go there, and I think he'd feel odd if I kept him at home to teach him.
Everyone's experience is different, and in an ideal world, all parents would be able to choose the best possible education for their child. Sadly, this is not an ideal world and our options are limited ? by finances, the places we live, our own personal resources... We all have to make the best of the situation we find ourselves in, and this is all part of 'educating' our children to live in a real world, rather than some constructed fantasy of how we'd like it to be.
I know of three kids who are being 'home educated'. I'm afraid I do have strong reservations about all their experiences. One mother has decided not join any home education groups and 'educates' her only child purely at home. He mixes well with adults and seems mature far beyond his years in some ways, but I've seen him at the park with other children, and I'm afraid he doesn't interact well as part of a group of children. Another mum doesn't seem to believe in 'teaching' her child as such at all ? cannot read at the age of 7.
I'm sure some of you home educaters are extremely committed to providing your children with an excellent, all-round education. But it is a huge commitment, and not one I feel personally equipped to take on.

I just wanted to make a quick point about the radio programme on home educated adults that was mentioned earlier. They did say they wouldn't choose the same for their children, although one of them pretty much said that if it was a nice day or there was somewhere interesting to go, her children would suddenly develop earache and have to stay off school that day! However, they came from a variety of backgrounds and were educated a couple of decades ago when HE was even less well known or accepted. One or two were brought up in communes so didn't have a lot of contact with mainstream society, which was why they found it hard to cope when they did enter mainstream jobs. Another was brought up abroad somewhere in the middle of nowhere I think, so again was cut off from contact with many other people.
However, they did all have positive things to say about the experience of being home educated, and the programme maker commented on the fact that they were all extremely articulate, lively, free thinking, interesting people, who had forged happy, productive lives and careers for themselves.
I think these days the image of home educating parents as all being lentil munching hippies is not true, the vast majority live within and are a part of mainstream society, so their children are not cut off from contact with others, and with brownies/scouts/music groups/drama groups/church meetings, and a million other activities to choose from, there are plenty of opportunites to meet and interact with other adults and children.

Phew OK Anais, I put my hands in the air and admit to having written in a rather offensive tone. Certainly not meant personally (as I don't even know you!) but more a product of my strong feelings on this and my lack of internet language skills even after 3 years of mumsnet!!

But for the record Just because I don't agree with HEdders it doesn't mean I do not know about the subject. I do. In fact there was a very long and vociferous string on it last year on mumsnet where lots of Hedder parents came on to tell us about how wonderful Hed was, but then disappeared off the website never to participate on mumsnet again.I'm afraid these people and the wesites they offer are in fact, as someone else on this string pointed out, very 'religious' and extreme in tone. As if those of us who don't agree have not 'seen the light' and as you so also assumed that 'views are based on ill-informed stereotypes.'

So yes we all do what we think is best. But my final point must be that most parents do not just dump their kids at school and take no responsibility for them. Most parentse take a lot of responsibility, they teach and talk to them outside school and let them know that there are other things to life rather than exams and THE proffessions, without denying them the benefits of a school environment. When you look around you can see that the effect of parents on their children is far stronger than any school. They are with you more than they are with their school teachers, and you have more influence than them. So don't underestimate the influence we all have despite the crap state school system!!!!

My sister's children provide an interesting case study on these issues. She has 3 children, twin boys and a girl. When they were very young they didn't go to school at all, she took them off travelling around Europe for 3 years, particularly France, Spain and Eire. Then they attended a Steiner school in Wales from the ages of approximately 6 for the girl and 8 for the twins. All could read and write at the usual ages and the boys were (and still are) fluent in Spanish. This Steiner school went up to the age of 13 when the twins and then later, the girl, attended their local state secondary school. The twins obtained a large amount of high-graded GCSE's each and are now earning and learning on apprenticeships (which were obtained against great competition), one in engineering (hopes to join RAF when older) and one in catering as a hotel chef (wants to become a great one). The girl is coming up to take GCSE's this year. None had any difficulties fitting into state school from their previous educational situations and all are accomplished in musical and artistic endeavours. The most interesting thing I find with these particular children is their level of maturity and self sufficiency is remarkable, they are all 3 extremely nice people. Basically you could say their education became more conventional the older they got, so maybe different methods are right for different ages and in some ways I think we do put our children into formal education too young. I, however, put my dd into a pretty formal nursery school of a private school at 2 and a half, very part-time (2 short mornings at first) and gradually built up to full-time at 4 and a half. So I can't talk, but she absolutely loved it because she is very sociable and loves being with other children and enjoys learning in a structured way.

But Lil the reason HEdders can often sound so fervent and "religious" is because their decision is so often attacked by people with no knowledge of their situation.

I still find it interesting that my decision to HE ds1 hasn't been attacked at all, whilst anais has come in for a lot of flack. Our children are not so different that what is good for ds1 would be bad for anais' children. DS1 still requires social contact etc.

I agree with you cam - I think flexibility in education is the key. If a child is happy in their learning environment they will learn wherever they are.

Love the sound of that School in Australia. That's something I love about the local Steiner school- huge grounsd with teehouses and crops.

I taught in an agricultural high school in japan. They had chickens and horses and goats!

Only just read the last few days messages here. So much has been said, not much to add:

Annais, I think you argue the Hedder corner very eloquently - but I still don't think HE is for me. Emotions have become a bit heated, but take a look at the old HE thread lil referred to, and you'll see the discussion got much more heated that time round. You and jimjams offer, imo, far more balanced and persuasive arguments than some of the Hedders who mysterioulsy appeared on mumsnet only for the duration of that thread.

The last pro HE message on that thread - an article written by a Hedder - was, I thought, pretty offensive to non Hedder children, and exactly the sort of thing to inflame non hedder parents. Coming as it did at the end of the discussion, no one really rose to the bait

Anyway, the only question I have to ask is this - you and jimjams seem very bright, articulate and motivated parents. You are studying for A levels, jimjams has a phd. Teacher training colleges would surely snap you up like a shot.

Sadly, not all parents are going to be like you. Some of us are as thick as two short planks in at least one area of the curriculam. With the expense of HE (books, computers, trips out, extra classes to pay for, less chance of the HE parent being able to work)could many families on the breadline really afford this option? Also do you truly think most parents are mentally up to the task?

As I see it, HE is a valid choice, but only parents safely above the breadline and more importantly above average intelligence can go this route.

I have no objection to hearing about HE success stories and agree with lots of the reasons to HE, but would part company with anyone who thought state education was second rate compared to HE, and consequently we were doing our children a disservice in sendng them to school.

Tigermoth, I think in some areas, state education might well be secondary to HE. As I said earlier, I would choose to HE DD over sending her to our local state school. But I'd only HE if I could find another group of people locally who were also doing it because to educate one-on-one in this house wouldn't do DD or me any good and I'm not sure I have the motivation to take her to hundreds of places (and would want some guidance on where to start etc).

As it happens, there is a local group, just a couple of miles away, I've found through the ocntact anais provided. They are a Christian group but er non-Christians join in because they are a good group, apparently. So perhaps this is the way I would go, if i had to.

Another option would be to move to a different area where schools are better.

All this is theory at the moment though. I'm not a very settled person, I tend to think a lot about 'what ifs' which isn't really a bad thing as DH's career isn't a settled one anyway. If I had the fixed view that DD's school was the one and only for the next 12 years, it would create all sorts of problems if he announced he'd been offered a 3 year contract in the US. Which he hasn't