has anyone had a Steiner education?

[forest]

I am very interested in the Steiner way of teaching and think it would be great for young children. However, I am not sure how good it is for older children as it doesn't focus on exams and I wonder if that would be a disadvantage. Has anyone been educated the Steiner way and could tell me more about it?

tigermoth- I am in a fortunate position - especially with ds2- where I really have the opportunity to send him anywhere I like. At the moment I favour a Steiner school- could change as he grows older, but my favoured option.

I know families do HE when they are on the breadline, but I agree it must be difficult. But then everything is difficult if you are on the breadline, and maybe for them it isn't. Again I think it comes down to individual children and individual circumstances as to what works. I agree with Sue that in some areas state education may be secondary to decent HE. That doesn't however mean I would condem anyone for sending their child to school. As an example I come into contact with a lot of parents of autistic children. To date I have met two families who believe their child is being educated well (both children have Asperger's ). Of all the other families I know, they don't even believe their child is being educated adequatetly let alone well. When we talk about HE they say "it would be good, but I know I couldn't do it". I don't judge them in any way at all. Being at home with an autistic child is difficult enough I can quite understand why families need the time and space thatt school provides. I certainly wouldn't get on my high horse and preach to them.

got to dash portage is here...

Tigermoth ? absolutely agree with you on this one!

SueW, this is very nosey so don't answer if you don't want to - but which is your local state school? I grew up in Nottingham and can't resist asking!
I've found this thread very interesting - not going to add my views as they are rather ill-formed and I don't trust myself to get the right level of tact/diplomacy - and I do think discussions remain rather more informative if they don't get too heated!

Tigermoth your last sentence was very well put!

But jimjams I was thinking about your son. I know I haven'tcommented on your plans for Hed because I just wouldn't know how affected he is by the autism and what his needs are. There must be quite a range of learning difficulties. I guess if you could get him into a special needs school, or even better, one that takes special needs children alongside 'normal'(!) children, then this would be better then Hed. There is one local to me that is in very high demand, and it seems like a lottery if you can get in. It really is a shame that more schools don't have qualified teachers to take these children in with the other kids. It would be so much better on all sides to get kids to realise that not all children are the same. Another argument against the isolation of Hed!!

Ahh now Lil you've touched on a very interesting point. The government is committed to mainstream integration. This means that places in special schools are being reduced across the country in the interest of integration. For many disabilites this may well be the correct course of action, but I'm afraid it just isn't for the majority of children with an autistic spectrum disorder.

The trouble with having autistic children in with the other kids is that in many cases being with 29 other children could be pretty unbearable for the autistic child. Imagine if every one of your senses was hyper, and you could hear every stomach rumble, smell every smell, have teachers without a clue insist on you "looking at them" even though eye contact was painful. Imagine if you had to sit in assembly squashed next to other children even though their touch was painful, and on top of that imagine being bullied becuase you're odd! Not ideal!

For these reasons I'm not sure that ANY school is better than HEd. The basic requirements for autistic children in terms of education are a)quiet places without too many stressors, and b) one to one teaching. These cannot be provided in schools. If I was to send DS1 to school he would (IMO) require one to one at all times including break times and lunch (in fact he's on a gluten free diet so pretty constant supervision would be a necessity). The most you can get is 0.8, what about the other 0.2? Is he just not going to be autistic for that 0.2.

I take your point about units attached to mainstream. There is one locally, which could be good. Units are good because class sizes are at a manageable level for autistic children and staff are usually aware of the particular problems faced by autistic children. However I would still say they are not as good for the child as HE. My favourite would be flexi-schooling. Attending shcool for suitable activities and being HE the rest of the time. I do know people who have manged to do this successfully- but for various reasons (many of them political) it's not easy to get it to work. Unfortunately my local unit has a whole host of problems going on there which means that it isn't currently very good. Also it provides 8 places for infants and that's it. The children would have to transfer at juniors and where to? And what about all the other autistic children? Where do they go? In my area there is one school I would send my chld to. It offers enhanced special provision to one autistic child each year. Unfortunately I am not in the area or catholic which rules me out.

I am all for good units attached to mainstream and in fact will probably be taking part in a national campaign for this at some stage during the coming year. However I actually think that for the average autistic child HE is a better option- or at least them knowing the option is there if it all becomes too much. Sending DS1 to a decent unit (if there was one) would be better for me, but I don't believe it would be better for him.

Incidentally the best schools in the country for autistic children have been set up by (very well connected- think Nick Hornby) parents fed up with total lack of suitable provision for their kids.

Jim Jam, when you have a healty child you just don't think about the problems other parents must have. I am honestly amazed at your patience wrt teaching your son at home. It must be hard work with no let up. From what you're saying tho' if there are insufficient places for special needs children then HE must be the norm. How on earth do working mums, or skint mums come to that, deal with that? Does your HV(who else would support you?) literally leave you to it?

I have heard from a lot of parents that integration isn't such a great idea for many children with disabilities. Special schools had committed teachers with huge amounts of specialist experience and understanding of blindness, deafness, autism etc etc, the right equipment, suitable premises and children could meet others with similar disabilities and so feel less isolated and freakish. I am also a little cynical about whether the rush to integration is fuelled by moral, educational or purely financial considerations.

No HE is most definitely not the norm. For people with other children and no family support it just isn't possible. If we were still living in London it wouldn't be possible for us. This is why I would never criticise anyone for sending their autistic child to school.

I have recently set up a support group (actually it's not it's coffee mornings for parents of autistic children). I think every person who rang me with school age childen said "We have had x years of hell" or words to that effect. To be honest the norm is either for the children to attend school but not actually learn anything, or for them to be excluded because the head "doesn't believe" the diagnosis. In fact the only person I heard from who sounded remotely relaxed had home edded her son from the age of 11, and 5 years later she was still furious about the way the eduaction system had treated him before she took him out of school.

In my mind I have 2 choices. I either fight the LEA to make them provide a bearable education, or I do it myself. I know my stress levels will be lower doing it myself and I now have very good family support so for me HE is a possibility.

Lil- one more thing. Many parents who have pulled their autistic children out of school find that their lives actually become so much easier once they HE. As their children are no longer so stressed they can't function (or are suicidal- all too common) the meltdowns and tantrums stop.

Aloha- it's financial - once you start trying to extract something from the system you find that your child is nothing more than a line in a budget book.

Sorry Lil I keep seeing more in your last post. HV vary- mine's good but she won't have much to do with DS1 from school age.

Support? ha ha ha!!!! Other parents provide support. Social services are a joke. We get support from DS1's excellent nursery (partly becuase the manager battles with the authorities). Inorder to get him funded one to one she had to refuse to take him without it. He was granted 15 hours (12 and half is normal). So even if I wanted to work ful time I couldn't- where would he go? Also get support from DS1's portage worker, but I think that will end at Easter. She visits us at home and gives "tasks" to complete during the week.

DS1's main problems are in language. He could also do with seeing an OT but they are rarer than fairies. He will have spent 2 years come March on speech therpay waiting lists- that's more than half his life. In that time he has had one hour courtesy of the NHS. He will be 4 is March and is incomprehensible anyone except me. We did pay for some speech therapy in London (at 50 quid an hour) but there aren't any private ones down here, so I've taken to doing it myself. To give you some idea of his speech "da dye nanig can" is bye bye mummy's car "gi gi gies" is pretty lights and so it goes on in Martian. I have just heard that his speech therpaist will be visiting him at nursery in a couple of weeks but "there's no need for Mum to go". Well I'm sorry but who has been actually doing his speech therapy for the last 2 years, oh yes me. So I've left a message saying actually I will be going so what time would she like me to turn up.

That's the support we get.

In terms of HE. We will get the same as everyone else. An inspector will be sent by the LEA to make sure the education is suitable. They vary from helpful to downright obstructive- I think our LEA are fairly sympathetic.

elliot - I would rather not name the school but I am in Long Eaton, which actually comes under Derbyshire for education.

Whereabouts in Nottingham did you grow up? I grew up here too (Bramcote) but moved away for ten years in my twenties.

About integration of special needs - there's an article in our local paper tonight saying that a local special school Foxwood has been given top marks by Ofsted. Apparently four such schools in the county have been similarly commended in that past 12 months.

Sue W- I bet they have about 20 people for every place. it is so hard to get into a special school these days.

Wow, its great to keep coming back to find so many messages. It's nice that so many people are interested - on whatever level, I'm always shocked by the amount of people who don't even know that HE is possible.

There are just a few things which occured to me at 3am this morning (lying awake with dd...) which I thought I would mention and then I will reply to what's below

In response to Lil's comments (and in a clamer state of mind ). In HE you don't need to study the subjects as distinct from one another - certainly not in the early stages - and if once your child is older they show no interest in a particular subject, it's a pretty sure bet they won't be making a career from it.

In school you aim to meet certain standards in maths, english, sciences, etc. That's not the case with HE. It's not a matter of "We'll do chemistry for an hour and then we're going to do geography, followed by maths..."

At home kids can spend hours outside and that connection with nature, the earth, the weather, the seasons, teaches them a great deal about life, as well as elements of geography, geology, biology, chemistry, physics...

Simple projects can lead from one subject to the next, without each area of the curriculum being defined in isolation. Learning from life leads to all kinds of possibilities.

Maths, for exaple, can be done through playing board games, helping with shopping and cooking, working out budgets etc. Schools simulate a lot of every day situations to assist with the teaching of maths.

I want my children to have a more balanced curriculum than they would in school, not just academic qualifications. I want them to have time to paint, garden, sew, embroider, make things. I want them to learn to cook and take some responsibility for cleaning and helping to run the house. These kinds of skills will help to prepare them for life far better than just a handful of exams.

HAving said all I have I think too much emphasis has been put on what I said about not taking exams. Evryone has taken that aspect and jumped on it. It's an option. You don't have to take exams. But that doesn't mean you can't and plenty do.

Croppy, in answer to your question, I am ashamed to say that at the moment I'm on benefits. I am hoping that once I can move I will be able to register as a childminder and earn at least some money that way. I'm still looking for that elusive work from home which will allow me to live with a clear conscience.

Lil, "As if those of us who don't agree have not 'seen the light' and as you so also assumed that 'views are based on ill-informed stereotypes.'"

From the comments you make, it seems to me that you are working on stereotypes. And if your only knowledge is formed from a previous debate then I wouldn't say you are particularly well informed on the matter. I wouldn't suggest I knew anything about a particular subject just from hearing people expressing their own opinions. No matter, I am not, and have not at any point suggested that you are in need of 'seeing the light'. I have not said at any point that I beleive school is a bad thing. I completely respect your decision to educate your children however you choose. I am surprised by the amount of people who get incredibly defensive about school. People seem to feel that MY choice to educate MY children in a way that is different from their own, is a criticism of the choices they have made. That is not the case at all. But I am not going to send my kids to school just to make other people feel better.

Tigermoth, you make some interesting points. When I have finished typing I will go and have a look at the thread you mentioned.

I'm glad you feel that this side of the argument is being well argued. I am not here for a fight, but I want to provide a balanced insight for those who are interested.

If HE isn't for you, fine, it's not for everyone, and I have no problem with you not agreeing with my views.

I don't WANT to be a teacher (anyone see the stats about 1/3 of new teachers quitting within 5 years??). It's not a career path I have ever really considered. I'm not doing this to be a teacher, but because I feel I can give my children a better, more balanced education than they could get in any of the local schools.

There are areas of the curriculum which I'm not so confident about (ok, major understatement!!!), but we'll deal with that when it arises. Maths, as I think I have mentioned is a major sticking point for me, but I can certainly handle the early stages. Once it gets to the point where I feel I can no longer cope, I'm not going to compromise my kids futures by stubbornly carrying on. I will find a way around it, an alternative way of teaching. At the end of the day this isn't about me.

As far as your comments about money, I am hardly 'well off' myself. As I have just stated below, I'm currently on benefits. I hope to remedy the situation as soon as possible, but I'm never going to be rich. It is argued that HE needn't be any more expensive than school. You don't need to pay out for uniforms, no school trips, no need for the latest trainers/toys/mobile phones that they just have to have because all their frienfs have them...

It doesn't need to be expensive, (2nd hand computers, he discounts (yes HE'rs do get discounts!!) libraries, borrowed, 2nd hand equpment...).

As to whether most parents are mentally up to the task. Well, maybe not, but neither do I believe that 'most parents' are ever going to HE.

SueW, I'm glad the links were productive for you.

If you are ever stuck with Geography, anais, get in touch - I have loads of stuff! In 15 yeard we will be swapping resources for our kids to sit all these exams ......

Re: the stats about 1/3 of teachers quitting in 5 years, I would like to know what question was actually asked. I bet if you asked most people do they intend to be doing the same job in 5 years, they would say no chance

No idea Tinker, there was a story about it on the aol home page and I heard references to it on the radio, was it yesterday, but didn't really listen. Take your point about people not wanting to imagine themselves in the same job in 10yrs time but teaching is a career not just a job. Surely people don't spend (how many?) years training to be a teacher, only to give up and do soemthing different in 5 years???

SueW, what is your interest in geography? You want to be careful making offers like that, I might just take you up on it

Ooh, just thought of something else. Someone below (sorry, can't remember who) mentions a child not being able to read at 7. This is not unusual. In fact Steiner - which is where this whole debate started - believed that children shouldn't be taught to read until after the age of 7. I don't subscribe to that, personally, but I do believe in allowing kids to come to it in thier own time. Because he kids get the one-to-one attention, they generally learn at a quicker rate and catch up with thier peer group sooner or later.

Kids only learn to read at 5 in school because it's convenient for the teacher.

Apologies for the typos. Typing with one hand while dd sleeps on my lap...again. Right going to bed now.

Teacher training takes 3 years for a BEd, of a year for a PGCE if you already have a degree in a 'school' subject. I had an idle thought while I was trying to get to sleep last night (Mumsnet id getting to me ), are HEs OFSEDed? I only ask because childminders have to have a regular OFSED check.
Oh, good thing that Dd didn't go to a Stiener school, she taught herself to read at 3 and a half. She'd have been very bored waiting till she got to 7. And all the craft stuff in the world wouldn't have satisfied her.....I know I tried

Everyone gets so hung up on reading in this country! In Germany they don't learn until 7. DS1 taught himself to read at 2, but he can't talk so it's not a great deal of use!!! Children learn when they are ready.

Steiner isn't all about "craft stuff", they don't just sit there drawing with beeswax crayons, they do things like gardening, and a lot of play. They are introduced to letters and numbers before the age of 7, just not in a worksheet kind of way. One thing I love about early years Steiner is that they spend so much time outside.

hmb- HEdders aren't OFSTEDed- what would be the point- no-one else is going to be sending their child there. The legal requirement is to provide a "suitable education". The LEA will usually make approaches to ensure that this is happening. A common method seems to be a yearly visit from an education welfare officer. Sometimes people are left alone for years and sometimes they are hassled again and again. The law is very much on the HEdders side though (especially un England and Wales).

I think there is a big difference between children wanting to read young (I did) and being 'taught' when they have little interest or find it a big struggle. I think the idea that they have to be taught to read by five or it's a big disaster is just nonsense. As others have said, in Germany you aren't expected to learn until the age of seven, at which point the vast majority of children find it easy and rewarding so their feelings around books are positive. That's certainly not true of a lot of children at the moment. Starting later does not mean you remain 'behind' - quite the contrary!