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STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

1001 replies

zzooey · 05/04/2008 19:37

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

OP posts:
Janni · 10/04/2008 22:11

Northern - I feel the same. If DS1 had been happy at his state primary I'd never have got involved in Steiner. It just does present itself as an alternative. You can't know what you don't know until you and your family are in quite deep and it's an upheaval to extricate yourselves. I kept hoping for state funding to sort out the MANAGEMENT of the place - I really was unaware of how deeply anthroposophy ran through the whole outfit.

Thebee · 11/04/2008 01:31

"These schools are sectarian. Anthroposophy is a specific religion with specific beliefs and practices, and parents should be told what specific religion their children are being instructed in, and what is the meaning of these ceremonies, just as we would if we enrolled our children in a Catholic school or a Jewish school or an Islamic school."

More WC-mythology, this time myth 2.

What is Waldorf education?

DianaW · 11/04/2008 02:09

You wrote all 3 of those, with help.

You can't even be honest about that? At least I sign my name to things I write.

Thebee · 11/04/2008 02:19

Is "the slaying of the dragon" an "anthroposophical myth"?

No. The picture of the struggle between man and a Dragon of one form or another is part of many cultural traditions.

In Greek culture it is found in one form as the picture of Hercules killing the hydra, it is found in Babylonean mythology as the picture of Marduk killing Tiamat, in Nordic mythology it is found in the picture of Sigfried killing Fafner

Today, it is found as the central theme of the movie Fellowship of the Ring, the first volume of Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, one of the most read works of the 20th century.

In the form of St. George (Patron Saint of Armorers, Cavalry (mounted warriors), and Soldiers) and his struggle with the Dragon, it is the leading picture of the scouts of the world. The best known story of St. George says the Dragon lived in a lake near Silena in Libya.

Stories of monstrous serpents who are killed or imprisoned by heroes or divine beings may date back to prehistory, and are found in the myths of many Indo-European peoples, including those of the Indo-Iranians, that is, the common ancestors of both the Iranians and Vedic Indians.

While Michael or St George fighting the Dragon is typical in European culture, the story and celebration of man conquering the dragon is not a specific "anthroposophical story", it is found in many cultures, and probably celebrated according to the cultural context where Waldorf schools are found in different parts of the world.

DianaW · 11/04/2008 02:20

Well, hello there you are live! I'll sit here 10 minutes and I'll see if there are answers to the questions I just wrote to you.

DianaW · 11/04/2008 02:20

You do stay up late doing this don't you? It's the middle of the night over there!

DianaW · 11/04/2008 02:23

Nope that wasn't the question I asked.

You can't do it, can you? Simply answer one question straight, without twisting it or diverting or linking.

We'll start with the very first question on the list. Cutting and pasting:

Is Saint Michael not a principal figure in anthroposophy?

Try that one. You cut and paste it too, and put the answer underneath it. Don't rewrite it a way that suits you better because it's less specific. I didn't ask you if slaying the dragon was an anthroposophical myth.

I'm sitting here watching to see if I can get an answer to:

Is Saint Michael not a principal figure in anthroposophy?

DianaW · 11/04/2008 02:30

Incidentally, I didn't say "slaying the dragon" was an anthroposophical myth, did I?

You always twist it at least slightly, so that it suits you better to answer. Hell will freeze over before you'll answer a direct question, directly. You frequently answer a question that wasn't asked, a common propaganda technique allowing you, you hope, to control the discussion better.

I said that St. Michael was a principal figure in anthroposophy, and that the slaying of the dragon by St. Michael every September was an anthroposophical legend.

Is that incorrect.

Again I urge you to cut and paste the actual remark and reply directly as to whether it is correct or not.

Specific what part of it is incorrect if so. We are not going to discuss "Lord of the Rings." That was not the question.

I'm gonna go brush my teeth and come back and see if there's an answer.

It's just an astounding experience, trying to get honest with an anthroposophist.

DianaW · 11/04/2008 02:53

Well . . . guess I'll go to bed.

Compare the times on these posts, and you can see he was on here at the same time I was, but declines to have this discussion, I guess.

They were such simple questions, too. But then again, he says he had to study Steiner for 10 years before starting to understand any of it, so maybe he hasn't yet figured out for sure whether St. Michael is an important figure in anthroposophy.

DianaW · 11/04/2008 03:08

Anybody remember a hydra slaying ceremony in their Steiner school LOL.
Well good night ladies, I guess you are all sleeping anyway.

easeonline · 11/04/2008 08:53

"In the form of St. George (Patron Saint of Armorers, Cavalry (mounted warriors), and Soldiers) and his struggle with the Dragon, it is the leading picture of the scouts of the world."
He is also Patron Saint of England which marks the day on April 23rd, same as Scouts.
Is it really too much to think that rather than simply exporting the Anthro version, it would have been simple for anthroposophy in England to celebrate the dragon festival in April?
But no. I think Diana has something in wondering about some anthro 'insight' which leads to celebrating the dragon event at the same time as we celebrate the day of Saint Mik-ay-el (former Patron Saint of Marks & Sparks?)
Davy

Thebee · 11/04/2008 09:59

DianaW:

"Compare the times on these posts, and you can see he was on here at the same time I was, but declines to have this discussion, I guess."

You do seem quite obsessed about a number of things. I have never personally met any "anthroposophist" in some sense as obsessed with anthroposophy as you seem to be, with full personal names, with me, and who wrote what where. Unsigned texts are quite common in different contexts where people work together to produce and publish texts.

After I had written my comment, I went to bed. I sleep at times, and it was late.

Janni · 11/04/2008 12:26

Exactly, Diana. I never had a clue what was going on at the St Michael Festival, anyway. The highlight was when it was the turn of a particularly rowdy class to wear the dragon costume and they'd all be fighting inside it

zzooey · 11/04/2008 12:51

Well, I can tell you that there was no 'slaying the hydra' at my waldorf school. However, there was the S:t Michael slaying the dragon-ceremony/-festival, every year.

I don't know how Michael came into the equation.

The same myth - S:t George slaying the dragon - is depicted in churches. See for example this beutiful work of art in one of our Stockholm churches:

www.stockholmsdomkyrkoforsamling.se/dynimage.php?mod=gallery&id=6

Why does anthroposophists focus on this Michael person, if it didn't have meaning to them? A special meaning? And you know where I'm getting. It's Steiner's theories of S:t Michael, isn't it?

Because the dragon on that picture is called S:t George (or S:t Göran, in Swedish), not Michael. It's really not the same thing.

OP posts:
zzooey · 11/04/2008 12:54

"The dragon at Steiner Michaelmas ceremonies is not depicted as having many heads."

Just to emphasize this, this dragon has one head. I think 3-headed beings may have figured in other stories, bot not this one.

OP posts:
Thebee · 11/04/2008 13:20

On festivals and their role at Waldorf schools, you write, Diana:

"... the festivals [at Waldorf schools] are anthroposophical and are celebrated in Steiner schools because Steiner schools are anthroposophical institutions, founded to spread anthroposophy. Anthroposophical legends are enacted at these festivals."

Maybe you forgot:

"And Christmas, as some of us also recently have found out (those few of us who are "Steiner waldorf critics"), also is an anthroposophical festival, founded by Steiner and celebrated to in secret spread anthroposophy thoughout the world..."

Is St Michael and the celebration of Michaelmas at the end of September a covert anthroposophical invention, legend and operation to in secret spread anthroposophy through the world as somewhat paranoically indicated by Diana ? (For some reason, WCs seem to have a special hang for cultivating xenophibia and paranoia, in their case against Waldorf schools.)

No. It is a central part of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Michael is a given name that comes from Hebrew. He is one of the principal angels in the Abrahamic tradition. Three of the five times he is mentioned in the Scriptures is in the Tanakh, where he is described as fighting for the Jewish church against Persia.

In European culture the fight between what is human in us and the dragon, found in many cultures, since long much has been dominated by the picture of St Michael or St George fighting the dragon. In Stockholm, where I live, it is depicted as a statue in the Old City since 1489.

As Davy has told, while St George is celebrated in April in the U.K., Saint Michael or Michaelmas is celebrated at the end of September also in the U.K. Michaelmas is a deep rooted european, not a specifically anthroposophical tradition, to celebrate the slaying of the dragon or victory over evil in one or other form. It's an archaic drama in human life.

For a typical example of how this festival, like other European or other traditions, as many festivals, is celebrated with the children at a Waldorf school, see here.

The Waldorf school in Atlanta describes the role of festivals at Waldorf schools:

"Waldorf education embraces the significance of festivals. Festivals can bring us consciously to what we all experience instinctively in our daily lives, the awareness and wonder of the changing cycles of the seasons and of life itself. Festivals can become a source of healing for the individual and society, a harmonizing, community building power.

Through festivals, we acknowledge and celebrate our communion with and our responsibility toward each other and the world. Observing seasonal turning points is one way the school establishes a yearly rhythm for the children. Festivals of the year are celebrated as conscious nourishment for the soul, xpressed with beauty and reverence, through art, music, stories, and poems."

Is this a good description of the role of festivals at Waldorf schools?

I think it is.

Does the celebration of festivals at Waldorf schools make them into "religious institutions" on a secret mission to spread anthroposophy?

No, as little the celebration of the same or similar festivals in general, in countries like the U.K. or Sweden makes them into religious institutions on a secret mission to spread religion.

But not that few Americans do seems to have an obsessive hangup about religion - for or against it. In Europe, that's not a big deal to get neurotic about, except to missionary atheists or other fundamentalist secular humanists. Though they are loud-spoken at times, trying to excite people about their cause, and as such in between get some media attention, they aren't that many.

DianaW · 11/04/2008 13:47

All that and not able to answer yes or no, is St. Michael a principal figure in anthroposophy?!

It isn't a trick question - funny how it seems to keep getting trick answers.

DianaW · 11/04/2008 13:53

Or try this one:

Is the slaying of the dragon at Michaelmas by St. Michael in September an anthroposophical ritual? Is it celebrated in Waldorf/Steiner institutions because it is anthroposophical?

Try to answer it without dragging in the kitchen sink - I don't care what Hindus celebrate and I don't care if the Atlanta Waldorf school has phrasing you think is discreet and maybe will put me off better than the last bit of clever wording from someone, somewhere.

What's the reason you can't answer with the simple truth that it's an anthroposophical ritual, and give a straight "yes" to do Steiner institutions celebrate anthroposophical rituals?

Why does it make you squirm to be asked for simple answers to simple questions about Steiner and his institutions?

northernrefugee39 · 11/04/2008 14:05

These passages from Steiner are available on the Rudolf Steiner Archive for all to see.
These are from this series of lectures -

here

northernrefugee39 · 11/04/2008 14:14

Then there's AC Grayling, Polly Toynbee, all welll known erudite speakers for secularism....
there's loads of stuff about it.

The people with excessive hang ups are.... mmnn oh yes.... old anthros trying to supress free speech....

zzooey · 11/04/2008 14:15

"But not that few Americans do seems to have an obsessive hangup about religion - for or against it. In Europe, that's not a big deal to get neurotic about"

With people like you, and other fundamentalist apologists, there quite clearly is reason for the rest of us to fight against it.

When waldorf people lure parents into sending their children to waldorf, were children will celebrate S:t Michael and other weird rituals - that are not commonplace in Swedish or other societies - they have a right to know what anthroposophists believe about S:t Michael.

If it's a part of the judeo-christian tradition - why aren't the people following those traditions celebrating in the exact same waldorfians do? No, they don't. Only anthroposophists celebrate S:t Micheal in the anthroposophical manner.

The rest of us, atheists, christians, jews etc, we look at a nice statue in a church, and say: what a lovely S:t GEORGE they put up here in the 15th century...

No enacting the S:t Michael drama with the kids, no rituals, no religious reverence fluff...

OP posts:
northernrefugee39 · 11/04/2008 14:15

"is St. Michael a principal figure in anthroposophy?"

A very simple question bee, are you capable of answering it?

northernrefugee39 · 11/04/2008 14:21

"in 1879, in November, a momentous event took place, a battle of the Powers of Darkness against the Powers of Light, ending in the image of Michael overcoming the Dragon" Rudolf Steiner.

Anthroposophists consider Michael to be the administrator of cosmic intelligence, who 'dwells on the Sun'.Steiner Waldorf schools celebrate the Michaelmas Festival (the festival of 'strong will') during the Autumnal Equinox (September 29).

Cosmic intelligence- there you are bee- do you want some cosmic intelligence?

zzooey · 11/04/2008 14:23

I thought I find a nice little Steiner quote on this Michael... but look, well... there's an infinite number of quotes...

wn.rsarchive.org/search=context?query=michael

This perhaps is good, though, it's about Michael and "the younger generation"

"There the dragon has entirely devoured human nature. But the dragon must be conquered, and therefore the knowledge must gain ground that the picture of Michael overcoming the dragon is not merely an ancient picture but that it has reached the highest degree of reality just at this time! [...]

Man's shrinking away from this consequence is the fearful untruth that has penetrated right into the human heart, into the human soul, and has seized hold of everything in the human being, making him a being of untruth upon the earth. We must acquire the vision of Michael who shows us that what is material on earth does not merely pass through the universal death through warmth, but will at some time actually disperse. He shows us that by uniting ourselves with the spiritual world we are able to implant life through our moral impulses. Thus what is in the earth begins to be transformed into the new life, into the moral.

For the reality of the moral world-order is what the approaching Michael can give. The old religions cannot do this; they have allowed themselves to be conquered by the dragon. They accept the dragon who kills man, and by the side of the dragon establish some special, abstractly moral divine order. But the dragon does not tolerate this; the dragon must be conquered. He does not suffer men to found something alongside him. What man needs is the force that he can gain from victory over the dragon."

wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/19221015p01.html;mark=224,54,61#WN_mark

OP posts:
northernrefugee39 · 11/04/2008 14:25

"Rudolf Steiner's life was guided and inspired by a lofty spiritual being, the world encompassing spirit of our time. In Western esotericism this being bears the name St. Michael. Rudolf Steiner can be seen as the human, earthly, Ambassador of St. Michael, who is the spiritual Ambassador of the divine Christ Being."

From the anthroposophical society of NZ, talking about Steiner@s "mission"

It's here
anthroposophical nonsense

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