STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

Thank you so much, northernrefugee39, for your insights on your experience. Its invaluable and helps me so much to write with people who have been in this situation.

I guess in reading Steiner the little that I have, I realize that he lived over 100 years ago. There are some universal truths out there, and it seems we do lose some of them, however, to take what he writes literally is something no one would do in any self-examining field. One hopes the educations of adults have been better than to take uncritically the word of any other human being, in any context.

His racism, as deplorable as it seems, is dulled for me by being a normal thing to think for when and where he lived. I really need to read one of his books as a whole. Out of context, is well, out of context! But, I don't approve of my kids thinking like little racists! Very few things would make me angrier.

PeteK, THANK YOU! I have been reading about Enki, and its exactly what I've been looking for. There is a school in the city my husband and I are planning to move to. And, BONUS, I think they emphasize reading! I still need to find out more about it. Thank you, I wouldn't have ever known about that if it weren't for your post.

(I think the discouragement of reading would have made me as a child, very unhappy. I loved being able to travel anywhere just by turning the pages of a book. I was reading by age 5, and haven't ever stopped). Scientology gives me the shivers.....it seems to take the concept of Social Darwinism to new and downright scary levels. Might be an interesting read, though!

I also haven't read much Plato, though its on my long list of reads. As early as my late teens, I realized I was an Aristotle girl, and dived headfirst into that. It amazes me that he was a stone's throw from discovering Darwin's evolution

p.s-I guess there WILL BE an Enki school. PeteK, this must be a very new thing. Thank you. If these schools are all they say, there will be some very long waiting lists.

"PeteK, THANK YOU!"

You're very welcome. Just please (I don't want to be responsible for steering anyone wrong) be sure it isn't another front for Anthroposophy (like Waldorf is). If and when you're satisfied it isn't - I'd love to hear from you. If it's the real deal (I hope - I hope) then I would love to recommend it to parents like you who want the burger but hold the secret sauce.

"As early as my late teens, I realized I was an Aristotle girl, and dived headfirst into that."

Anthroposophists claim Steiner was the reincarnation of Aristotle... So maybe there's something there...

"If these schools are all they say, there will be some very long waiting lists."

Yes... IF... Waldorf makes a lot of promises too(sorry, but once bitten, twice shy) . Please let us know your progress... IF they're actually what they say they are... then they will indeed be quite different from Waldorf.

I do hear you. Its never a good idea to entrust your child's education to anyone without some cogent questions.

It does seem, right now...from the website, that they are not a Waldorf supported institution. Really, Aristotle? And my sign is Cancer!

IT MUST BE FATE! (jk, of course!)

"It does seem, right now...from the website, that they are not a Waldorf supported institution."

I know... and from their websites, Waldorf schools have never heard of Anthroposophy ... just sayin'....

Having said this, I've also decided to try to look into Enki a bit more. If it's the real deal... we should know about it.

Sara82 - if you are in the UK, it may be worth looking at human scale education
though beware there are some steiner/waldorf inspired schools on the list whatever that means....

"Here she's claiming she's not familiar with the fact that other spiritual systems describe man as having a body, mind, and spirit."

Actually, Diana the statement that you've attempted to support is that this is the central idea to "EVERY OTHER SPIRITUAL PATH."
And, no I'm not familiar with whatever those systems might be.

Pete: "So what is it about answering direct questions that makes Anthropsophists/Waldorf people cringe like vampires around daylight? Anybody? Don't they want to share the "truth" with the rest of us?"

This sums it all for me Pete:
"You may flatter him, you may torment him: nothing can induce him to divulge anything which he knows should not be divulged to you because at your present stage of development you do not understand how to prepare in your soul a worthy reception for this mystery."
Rudolf Steiner: Wie erlangt men Erkenninise die hohern Welter? Berlin, 1918, pp3-4

Delving just a little deeper into how this affects staff, I think that the vast majority of staffers don't actually know the answers to our questions themselves. The difference is that they KNOW that they don't know, but being within the movement, there always seemed to be an assumption that there would come a time when they would be made privvy, but by osmosis rather than study. However, being "in" the movement seems to lend the thought that for all they don't yet know, they are further along the road of preparation than you are, and as part of that, one should discourage open discussion with outsiders.

Couple this steinerism with the archive caveat: "No person is qualified to form a judgment on the contents of this work, who has not acquired ? through the School of Spiritual Science itself or in an equivalent manner recognized by the School of Spiritual Science ? the requisite preliminary knowledge. Other opinions will be disregarded: the authors decline to take them as a basis for discussion."
[http://www.rsarchive.org/caveat.php?win]
Seems to me that these two alone indicate an ethos of 'tell them nowt'.

The people who have been through this initiation are not always openly associated with the school, but if the school wants to call itself "Steiner" it almost certainly adheres to the tenets of Anthroposophy, its first and ultimate loyalty.
Try asking a school who provides the Spiritual Guardianship under which the school operates. See how far you get.
Davy

Davy, I think you're absolutely right about this. That's the paradox in Steiner's philosophy. He wanted to bring about social change through keeping secret knowledge. If you're setting out to change the world... how about letting the rest of us in on it?

BTW - that may also be why we get so few Anthroposophists defending/discussing Steiner's ideas publicly (on non-Anthro-controlled forums). There's an assumption in the "No person is qualified" statement that until one understands Anthroposophy in the way it was "intended" (e.g. hook, line, and sinker), one cannot claim to have acquired the "prerequisite knowledge" to enter into discussions with Anthroposophists. Only believers are allowed to question Anthroposophy... and even then... um... not-so-much. And when they do participate in public forums about Anthroposophy, they often hide the fact that they are indeed Anthroposophists (we saw this before with Sune and now again).

One could glean a lot about how cults operate by paying attention to how this system to dismiss all criticism has been set up.

Oh Sara, you are of course welcome. And all luck and hope to you in the choices you make for your kids education. The Enki system looks interesting doesn't it?

The things Pete says about beware the sneaking in of Steiner waldorf are valid.... they aren't always open about where they hide.

Anthroposophists are involved with The Open Eye campaign , and I found out recently that a seemingly non Steiner organistation called Alliance for Childhood, is run from the same address as the Steiner Waldorf Schools Fellowship (where they have a Steiner publishing outlet too, and where Emerson College is,);
this site chase has a loist of all organistations known to be anthroposophical which might not immediately strike one as such. They like to be economical with their truth.

Davy, that's a great quote, and says it all really- no one is worthy to receive it. Parents at schools most certainly aren't.....

isenhart, feel like answering the things about Steiner's belief system and reincarnation? It's central idea hinging on climbing the hierarchical spritual ladder by disgarding primitive or "evil" races which weren't meant to have eveloved along side white races? Are you ignoring this question? Pretending it's not being asked?

Pete, not only do they dismiss all criticism, but they spend an inordinate ammount of time and energy gagging it. Sune was at nearly every discussion, and tried his best to threaten them with law suits when the truth was being discussed, and people were interested.
This apparently happened at The Green Parent,and although the discussion is stopped, it's still there.
He managed to get a couple I think, at the Times, deleted, and his friend Harwood I think , came on there too they were so freaked out. He came on the BBC one, and kept getting things deleted.
All I can say is , mumsnet defeated him.....and as it has more hits than any other chatboard, and he managed to put people off in a major way, it works against him. It's nice and quiet without him ny way; and less boring.

I'm surprised the press isn't more aware though; that they are hoodwinked; there's a rumour that the BBC is very biased towards Steiner schools for some reason; they may have some influence.

the green parent discussion is here

green parent page 2 of discussion

"They like to be economical with their truth."

"The Enki system looks interesting doesn't it?"

Well, as I promised to do a little research on it, I started out this morning by emailing Beth Sutton - the founder of Enki. I explained that I am a Waldorf critic (small "c") and that I would like to recommend her school system to people who have entered Waldorf only to find Anthroposophy at the middle of it. I asked her to confirm for me that Anthroposophy is not in Enki. I mentioned we were discussing this topic on this list BTW, but I neglected to link this thread or invite her to join us. Perhaps I should have.

"isenhart, feel like answering the things about Steiner's belief system and reincarnation? It's central idea hinging on climbing the hierarchical spritual ladder by disgarding primitive or "evil" races which weren't meant to have eveloved along side white races? Are you ignoring this question? Pretending it's not being asked?"

No, just trying not to bore you. The central idea of Anthroposophy, again for me, is that man is a threefold being whose consciousness evolves over time. You are certainly welcome to intepret Steiner's writings in any way that they make sense for you, or perhaps whichever way is most entertaining.

The only spiritual ladder that man may climb that I know of is as follows: Man, Christ, God.

"No, just trying not to bore you."

No - actually explaining yourself would not be boring... but then watching you go through your song and dance to avoid answering questions is also somewhat entertaining. You're certainly not boring - just not worth engaging in a dialog sometimes. Answer truthfully and it will make for a good discussion. Continue to dodge the questions and it makes for good entertainment. Your call...

"The central idea of Anthroposophy, again for me,"

That's a DODGE... What was it for Steiner?

"is that man is a threefold being whose consciousness evolves over time."

You obviously have a very different (I might say "simple") idea of what Anthroposophy is - and what you claim it is, it's not (you should read up a bit).

"You are certainly welcome to intepret Steiner's writings in any way that they make sense for you, or perhaps whichever way is most entertaining."

Well, so far, YOUR interpretations have been the most entertaining. But nobody cares about my interpretation, nor yours. Steiner's works are available on the internet for everyone to read for themselves. Each person can certainly draw their own conclusions - right from the horse's mouth.

And that way each person can decide for themselves if Steiner's racism and anti-Semitism, and for that matter, everything that Steiner ever said, is important to them or not. It's up to me as a critic of Waldorf, to demonstrate where these things exist in Waldorf and how they manifest in the curriculum and daily activities of the children.

BTW, I can anticipate your response, that you have never personally witnessed, or heard of anything like the things I discuss here... so there's no point in you making it each time - at least not for my benefit (perhaps there are one or two people here who may still believe it's possible).

"The only spiritual ladder that man may climb that I know of is as follows: Man, Christ, God."

Huh?

Has there been any progress here in the Steiner thread? How is it all coming along?

"Has there been any progress here in the Steiner thread? How is it all coming along?"

"Progress"? Why yes, several people have arrived here and went screaming for the hills. They're probably safer there.

Are you expecting this to move toward some sort of conclusion?

"No - actually explaining yourself would not be boring... but then watching you go through your song and dance to avoid answering questions is also somewhat entertaining. You're certainly not boring - just not worth engaging in a dialog sometimes."

I understand if it's too taxing for you.

"Answer truthfully and it will make for a good discussion. Continue to dodge the questions and it makes for good entertainment. Your call..."

And you will continue to attempt to define for us what is true and what is good.

"The central idea of Anthroposophy, again for me,"

"That's a DODGE... What was it for Steiner?"

Since I'm not Rudolf Steiner nor have ever claimed to be, unlike you, I don't know what the central idea of anthroposophy was for Steiner or if there even was one. It appears to me that the constitution of man, as a physical being, as an ensouled being, and as a spiritual being is the core component.

"You obviously have a very different (I might say "simple") idea of what Anthroposophy is - and what you claim it is, it's not (you should read up a bit)."

Say whatever you'd like. Am expressed opinion on your part conveys no obligation or duty on my part.

"You are certainly welcome to intepret Steiner's writings in any way that they make sense for you, or perhaps whichever way is most entertaining."

"Well, so far, YOUR interpretations have been the most entertaining. But nobody cares about my interpretation, nor yours."

Sweeping generalizations such as this one, which include everyone are not apt to be true.

"Steiner's works are available on the internet for everyone to read for themselves. Each person can certainly draw their own conclusions - right from the horse's mouth."

I think that's what I said-minus the horse reference.

"And that way each person can decide for themselves if Steiner's racism and anti-Semitism, and for that matter, everything that Steiner ever said, is important to them or not. It's up to me as a critic of Waldorf, to demonstrate where these things exist in Waldorf and how they manifest in the curriculum and daily activities of the children."

"It's up to me" implies some perceived responsibility on your part. Seems to me then, that in your view each person is free to determine meaning for themselves and act accordingly.

"BTW, I can anticipate your response, that you have never personally witnessed, or heard of anything like the things I discuss here... so there's no point in you making it each time - at least not for my benefit (perhaps there are one or two people here who may still believe it's possible)."

I believe that I said that I had not experienced what I would decribe as the gross lack of integrity that you have and you agreed.

"The only spiritual ladder that man may climb that I know of is as follows: Man, Christ, God."

"Huh?"

God, these threads are tedious.
I think MNHQ should remove the copy and paste facility, and you'd all become far more concise and to the point.
Maybe.

"God, these threads are tedious.
I think MNHQ should remove the copy and paste facility, and you'd all become far more concise and to the point.
Maybe."

I agree.

"God, these threads are tedious.
I think MNHQ should remove the copy and paste facility, and you'd all become far more concise and to the point.
Maybe."

I agree"

Ditto

"God, these threads are tedious.
I think MNHQ should remove the copy and paste facility, and you'd all become far more concise and to the point.
Maybe."

Like your post perhaps?

"I understand if it's too taxing for you."

Thank you.

"And you will continue to attempt to define for us what is true and what is good."

I will?

"Since I'm not Rudolf Steiner nor have ever claimed to be, unlike you, I don't know what the central idea of anthroposophy was for Steiner or if there even was one."

One needs but to actually READ Steiner to discover this.

"It appears to me that the constitution of man, as a physical being, as an ensouled being, and as a spiritual being is the core component."

No - as I said that's pretty much the "core component" of all religions. It would be like describing football as a game that is played with a ball. There's more to it (depending on which side of the pond one is on of course).

"Say whatever you'd like. Am expressed opinion on your part conveys no obligation or duty on my part."

Your "duty" in a discussion is to discuss.
Or stop. Obfuscation is neither your obligation nor your duty and doesn't advance the discussion at all.

""It's up to me" implies some perceived r
responsibility on your part."

Indeed it does.

"Seems to me then, that in your view each person is free to determine meaning for themselves and act accordingly."

Absolutely.

"I believe that I said that I had not experienced what I would decribe as the gross lack of integrity that you have and you agreed."

Word games... that's why I'm not going to discuss this with you any more. You can put a hat on a pig - it's still a pig.

Pig hats?
Link to stockists pls.