Sara wrote:]
"I'm new on this board, and I'm looking here, and posting here, because I have been considering a Waldorf school."
Welcome Sara
"I have been extensively reading both 'sides' on the internet, and I'm getting some Steiner books as well, and I'm wondering....do any of you think that there are ANY valuable things about this style of education, i.e., ANYTHING worth salvaging from the shipwreck that your experiences have been?"
Good for you Sara! Absolutely be as informed as you can be. Indeed it's much easier today with lots of information on the internet - and some not-so-good. You pretty much have to pick through it carefully as it appears you are doing.
To answer your question - and I think Northern alluded to it - Waldorf without the Anthroposophy would be a pretty decent arts school (the art itself would have to be replaced with something "artistic"). Yesterday my son (who is still in Waldorf until the end of this semester), for example, brought home a beautiful guitar that he made himself. That aspect of Waldorf is worth salvaging. Now what went INTO the making of that guitar, the comments, lessons, reasons for doing things the way they were done - that was pure Anthroposophy. That's the nonsense/religious/occult part that has to go.
"I ask this because I've been reading some more mainstream books and applying some recommended things that seem applicable. For example, I read to my 4 year old and my 1 year old (I know this is not recommended in Waldorf schools, but that's ridiculous), anyhow, I've been lighting a candle and making a kind of circle. They now sit quietly and I can read a whole book! Maybe even two books, but there are limits, they are kids after all! Anyway, its been 2 months of this, there is something about the candle. I've made little felt angels for them, and they love them, I mean they really love them. And many more things. The Waldorf recommended books are fantastic for my kids, the plant dyed playsilks, the wood toys, toys that kids can project imagination onto, connection to the natural world, connection to myth, and ritual, to name a few things."
You are drawn to the same things most of us who have been through Waldorf were drawn to... the "environment" can be very calming for adults... but it's like asking kids to sit still in a library. Sure, the playthings look great... but when play is "directed" toward certain themes, that's not necessarily good (when those themes are based on weird religious or racist stuff). Some Waldorf school kindergartens don't allow black crayons, for example. You may have noticed when you visited, NO dinosaurs, NO trucks or cars... stuff like that doesn't normally catch people's eye... but it has meaning in Waldorf.
"My son has been diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, and I swear this has helped him beyond belief. We do all sorts of things, gluten-free, milk-free, acupressure, social stories, neurotherapeutics, all the organic food we can afford, but these simple things have made him so much calmer. Some weeks there are no flare-ups, no problems. He's very high functioning, but lately his therapist is thinking its possible he will grow out of this. Its possible its all coincidence, but there is something to some of it, I notice it with the quality of both my children's attention, and their general happiness. I just wish we could take the good parts out of the crazy."
There has been an attempt to do that. It's called "Enki" and it's a derivative of Waldorf and others without (they claim) the Anthroposophy. Lots of people recognize that what's wrong with Waldorf is the Anthroposophy. Eventually, a school system (maybe something like Enki) with environments replicating Waldorf may establish itself as a Waldorf-lite and could find great appeal among many parents.
"Steiner did also say that pesticides and forced breeding would eventually cause many problem in our apiculture. It sounds commonsensical, but its far seeing for its time. Its unrelated, and its possible for anyone to be correct about some things, I guess."
Even a broken watch shows the correct time twice a day.
"What I'm really wondering, is why did people listen to Steiner at all?"
I'm pulling this all from memory... but Steiner worked his way up in the Theosophical society (Blavatsky) and eventually branched off - (Steiner basically got in and caused a mutiny) taking a lot of Theosophists with him... to start the Anthroposophical Society. In his time, there was a great (if I may use the word...) "impulse" toward spirituality. It was a time of frauds and charlatans... seances held to invoke the spirits of the dead for members of high society were common. Donnelly had released his "Atlantis" work in the late 1800's and Steiner picked up on the "fad". The world happened to be ripe for Steiner's kind of thinking... and he must have been very charismatic from what I can tell.
"Did he have money?"
No - he was not well off by any means.
"Was he personally charismatic?"
Yes, he would have to have been.
"Or did some of his ideas, not all of them, but some....have some real therapeutic value for a segment of the population?"
Who knows? Maybe tomorrow they will find evidence that verifies everything Steiner said... but I'm working with what's available today - and today it looks like much of the "value" people perceive is, indeed, a perception.
"I wrote more than I intended, and I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate."
Absolutely! You should be. It's the way we learn about things. I often attempt to debate both sides of issues in order to learn.
"I'm just trying to work out the good and the bad, so I can get the best out of it, whether its finding things I can teach, or looking for a school that has some non-scary Waldorf tendencies."
If your kids are young, maybe homeschooling works for you. You can get some non-academic benefit from Waldorf homeschooling. But once you have the environment, and the basic theme, I'm wondering what else you might want from Waldorf specifically?
"I'm really sad and angry about the bad things that have happened to some of the children in these schools. It isn't fair that people do these things to children. I wish there weren't this awful cloud of craziness about Waldorf schools. Its sad that there aren't more options for our kids in the world."
I agree. Here's the Enki approach - but I can't recommend it because, well, I fell for Waldorf and I know a lot less about Enki than I did about Waldorf at the time. If what they are saying is "true" (and there's no guarantee) it sounds OK.
"One other thing. I feel when I read Steiner, and bear in mind that I have not read one of his original printings yet...I feel that at least some of what he is writing is myth. Its a symbol. Like, for example, Freud, or Kepler...their writings have a mythical storytelling quality. And....some of what they write is laughably absurd."
Yes, many people, when they come across the absurdity of Steiner's ideas, try to claim they must be metaphors for something else. Steiner himself insisted that he did not use metaphors but rather described things as they truly are.
"Or, the Bible, for example. Much of that cannot be taken literally. However, there is a reality to good myth. I can't really explain that to my satisfaction yet, but it is tied up in spirituality and religion."
When Steiner said things, he meant them literally. He even went to the trouble of explaining literally in detail, the myths and metaphors in the Bible.
"For example, the etheric body probably doesn't come in just as a child loses her or his baby teeth. sigh, I don't really believe in the etheric, necessarily."
No, the etheric body is available at birth... it is the life force, according to Steiner.
"Piaget is much easier for me. Its missing the good story though. The gravity and mystery that gives more meaning to life. Its very hard to explain. I haven't given up yet though."
Oh, absolutely read Steiner for the story... Gel-people evolving from Saturn and populating Earth... Atlantis, Lemuria, it's great stuff - almost sci-fi. I can't wait to finish with Steiner and move on to L. Ron Hubbard.
Again, Welcome to the discussion Sara