STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

Anenome, oh those bloody gnomes. In the class gnomey gardens, (and in the homes of the camphill families), the teachers and parents move the gnomes around, and ell the kids they're real... up until they are at least 10/11 yrs old.
Of course, the adults believe in gnomes, sprites, sylphs etc. I had a serious conversation with a woman who saw one....Steiner called them elemental beings; they live in the earth, and push plants up through the soil. They really believe it.

They didn't have books in kinde when my daughter was there, or in the class room until they were much older. Books are Arhimanic( evil in other words) not spiritual. All their stories were told by the teachers, nothing bu the spoken word, up to the age at least of 9. When they were beginning to read, there were some battered oxford reading tree amazingly enough, which they were allowed to look at as a kind of treat. I suppose the "magic key" was allowable as it kept alive the idea of magic other worlds....

Yes Pete, the rocking chair and silk drapes, to calm the kids when they'd been whacking each other with sticks in the case of our kinde.

Isenhart, you'll find that there are people who have those values who aren't anthroposophists too.
Anthroposophists do not have a monoploy on kindness, beauty , truth, ( truth?- hmmm, lots of lies told to me and others by anthroposophists....kindness? , I would question the lack of human kindness at Steiner schools)) and who are non materialistic too.

You know what? They have humility too.

Your quote (is that Steiner, or someone else?) seems to typify a kind of complacent superiority, which encapsulates for me at any rate, the idea that some people have found righteousness, while the rest of us who can't see or find it, are comtemptable or to be pitied.
Thanks for you post, it illustrates much about the anthrposophical view.

You're welcome, northernrefugee39! Of course lots of people identify with the ideals that Waldorf Education espouses including, perhaps, even you. As for me, I don't have anythng against human efforts, possessions, outward success, or luxury nor do I hold the non-humble in contempt.

So who's is the quote? Is it Steiner?

Even me? We chose Steiner school for our kids, as liberal, left wing, progressive( we think!) creative parents.
What we found could not have been more opposite, as has been said so many times on these threads.
Steiner schools don't stand for the things they purport to. They are schools of anthroposophy, (and racist)

Do you believe gnomes and "elemental beings" exist isenhart?

What would you say then were the main ideals waldorf/Steiner education espouses? Let's see if we can agree on any.

"So who's is the quote? Is it Steiner?"

That was the same fellow who said, and you may have heard this one given that your family was in a Steiner school, "If you want your children to be brilliant, read them fairly tales. If you want them to be geniuses, read them more fairy tales." His name was Albert Einstein.

Now Northernrefugee39, you'll have to forgive me as I state the obvious: A.E.I.O.U.

"Even me?"

Even you.

"We chose Steiner school for our kids, as liberal, left wing, progressive( we think!) creative parents."

I know many Waldorf parents that would describe themselves in these same terms.

"What we found could not have been more opposite, as has been said so many times on these threads."

So the education is conservative, right-wing, traditional, formulaic?

"Steiner schools don't stand for the things they purport to. They are schools of anthroposophy, (and racist)"

Steiner schools, as far as I know, don't purport to be liberal, left wing, or progressive. They may purport to provide an innovative and/or productive approach to education. They are schools based on anthroposophy which you state is a racist ideology.

Do you believe gnomes and "elemental beings" exist isenhart?

I believe elemental forces exist, northernrefugee39 even though they have never manifested as a gnome for me. Thanks, btw, for spelling my name correctly. We have a mom in our local Waldorf school with a similar sounding first name as mine with the last name of 'Isenhart' so I always use a little 'I' and she uses another name entirely.

"What would you say then were the main ideals waldorf/Steiner education espouses? Let's see if we can agree on any."

Goodness, beauty, truth.

"Goodness, beauty, truth."

No isenhart, "truth" is not one of them. In fact Waldorf is built on dishonesty. It started with Steiner (I can get the quotes if you like) and continues today with Waldorf's dishonesty toward parents, prospective parents, students, former students (particularly), teachers, former teachers, even investors ("Giving" programs). Waldorf is dishonest from the get-go. They are dishonest about Anthroposophy's influence in Waldorf, they are dishonest about what they teach and why, they are dishonest about the rituals they perform and their reasons for them, they are dishonest about their reasons for late reading, for Eurythmy, for non-vaccinations, for no TV... they HAVE to be dishonest because if they were honest about these things, the only people in Waldorf would be Anthroposophists. Dishonesty is in everything they do... and... um... where's the "beauty" in that?

Oh, isenhart, yes, I do think the schools are based on a traditional germanic style( though obviously their content is anthroposophical, spiritual/occult science based).
I find the dictatorial, non questioning, the teacher's word as sacrosanct very rigid. Steiner's whole view is based on authoritarianism and elitism.
As to being right wing, many of Steiner's stances on anti semitism and race lean to the right,( many anthroposophists had sympathy with the nazis, that is well known,),in many people's, mine included, opinion, the whole belief system of anthroposophy, that people are divided into lower and higher races, that spirituality is directly related to skin colour, that humankind reincarnates in to higher and higher racial forms, and souls which fail to progress are relegated to a lower race- well this is an abhorrent belief,system, and many woulkd call it right wing. Perhaps you don't isenhart. Perhaps you have still to wake up to the fact that this belief about race is racist- even tho' anthroposophists argue the fact that Steiner eventually meant race to be superfluous in the future epochs where spirituality is all.
Steiner's definition of the word "freedom" is "spiritual activity" which projects a rather different slant on the idea of "education towards freedom" which he advocated. His ideas of social renewal and the three fold social order, along with biodynamic agriculture which is linked to "eco fascism" and the German national Democratic party are far right. There are many far right adherents to anthroposophy today- he environmental group World league for the Protection of Life for instance.
Formulaic you ask? Absolutely and completely , of course it is, look at all the ritual, symbolism, ceremonial procedures,candle lighting etc, fromm the morning verse/prayer, to the stages of things in the curriculum done at particular times; that's partly why it's so indescribingly boring for the kids, same old Steiner formula regurgitated all over the world in every Steiner school.
Does that answer your question isenhart?
Quoptes and references on request.

"No isenhart, "truth" is not one of them.
In fact Waldorf is built on dishonesty. It started with Steiner (I can get the quotes if you like) and continues today with Waldorf's dishonesty toward parents, prospective parents, students, former students (particularly), teachers, former teachers, even investors ("Giving" programs). Waldorf is dishonest from the get-go. They are dishonest about Anthroposophy's influence in Waldorf, they are dishonest about what they teach and why, they are dishonest about the rituals they perform and their reasons for them, they are dishonest about their reasons for late reading, for Eurythmy, for non-vaccinations, for no TV... they HAVE to be dishonest because if they were honest about these things, the only people in Waldorf would be Anthroposophists. Dishonesty is in everything they do... and... um... where's the "beauty" in that?"

Well, as you know, this has not been my experience with Waldorf Educators and I am sorry that it has been yours.

I am following your debate with huge interest...sorry to interrupt again but I wonder if someone could tell me...where does the "Waldorf" come from...why are they not just called Steiner schools....and why are the walls all painted peach...I understand that it is to imitate the colour of flesh..but why is that supposed to be good? And why did the Kindergarten leader I met have a big peach apron on? Do they all have those?

Also...what about the Hereford Waldorf school which is set to become an "Academy" and so gain public funding in the U.K.? IS that school as severe as the one I visited I wonder?

"Oh, Einstein, thanks for educating me; I have great gaps in my knowledge"

You're welcome.

"I echo entirely what Pete has said about "truth". I don't find the watery Steiner paintings particularly beautiful; aesthetically and creatively I find them fairly dire; give me Piero Della Francesca or Bonnard any day....other aspects of beauty within the education, the architecture? That curved pseudo art nouveau feel? I prefer classical simplicity, the geometric form, to the "natural" flow form and curved edges; it's quite subjective "beauty" isn't it? I certainly don't believe Steiner had a hold on bringing a harmony which induces pleasure with an idea of beauty with all those wishy washy colours and curved edges. The singing- that can be beautiful yes, the music, if the children were actually taught music, rather than having to intuit much of the time. Eurythmy I find bizarre, and certainly not beautiful, although I'm sure it's meant to be; at the school where ours were there was a world renoun eurythmy school and courses, so we did get to see it done "properly", I found it weird and ghastly, it creeped me out. It seems a cold, dispassionate and strange form of movement and communication.

The "goodness" apparently so pervading the Steiner philosophy is really not there in the schools as far as we saw- there are elements of it, people try hard to be "good", but there are also extraordinary acts of cruelty, by teachers and by child to child, ignored by adults. Steiner's views on people with disability , and races he perceived to be not as advanced as the aryan one doesn't strike me as "good" sentiments, do they to you isenhart?"

As I said, I think some people feel that they have found an educational environment that upholds the same values as they do. I think that's an attraction. I really can't imagine any parent seeing the elements that you saw: "dire, wishy washy, weird, ghastly, cold, dispassionate, strange, and bizarre" enrolling their child. As far as Steiner's sentiments go they don't strike me one way or another.

"Oh, isenhart, yes, I do think the schools are based on a traditional germanic style( though obviously their content is anthroposophical, spiritual/occult science based).
I find the dictatorial, non questioning, the teacher's word as sacrosanct very rigid. Steiner's whole view is based on authoritarianism and elitism.
As to being right wing, many of Steiner's stances on anti semitism and race lean to the right,( many anthroposophists had sympathy with the nazis, that is well known,),in many people's, mine included, opinion, the whole belief system of anthroposophy, that people are divided into lower and higher races, that spirituality is directly related to skin colour, that humankind reincarnates in to higher and higher racial forms, and souls which fail to progress are relegated to a lower race- well this is an abhorrent belief,system, and many woulkd call it right wing. Perhaps you don't isenhart. Perhaps you have still to wake up to the fact that this belief about race is racist- even tho' anthroposophists argue the fact that Steiner eventually meant race to be superfluous in the future epochs where spirituality is all.
Steiner's definition of the word "freedom" is "spiritual activity" which projects a rather different slant on the idea of "education towards freedom" which he advocated. His ideas of social renewal and the three fold social order, along with biodynamic agriculture which is linked to "eco fascism" and the German national Democratic party are far right. There are many far right adherents to anthroposophy today- he environmental group World league for the Protection of Life for instance.
Formulaic you ask? Absolutely and completely , of course it is, look at all the ritual, symbolism, ceremonial procedures,candle lighting etc, fromm the morning verse/prayer, to the stages of things in the curriculum done at particular times; that's partly why it's so indescribingly boring for the kids, same old Steiner formula regurgitated all over the world in every Steiner school.
Does that answer your question isenhart?"

Well, it was more of a question of when you said you saw the opposite of liberal, left-wing, progressive, and creative could that opposite be expressed in these terms. I think staid could work for the opposite of creative too.

"many of Steiner's stances on anti semitism and race lean to the right"

I'm tempted to add... "of Hitler".

"As I said, I think some people feel that they have found an educational environment that upholds the same values as they do. I think that's an attraction."

I don't doubt that. What were those again? "Goodness, truth, beauty"...

So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right? They are the tenets that Anthroposophy is based on. I guess "beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder.

"I really can't imagine any parent seeing the elements that you saw: "dire, wishy washy, weird, ghastly, cold, dispassionate, strange, and bizarre" enrolling their child."

And yet they enroll their children. I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially? Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it? At my kid's school, they lose 25% of their students every year... do you really think all those parents are pulling their kids because they're getting what they signed up for?

"As far as Steiner's sentiments go they don't strike me one way or another."

Doesn't matter if they "strike you" or not - and maybe you are indeed one of those parents who is in complete denial of the influence of Anthroposophy in Waldorf education (I don't believe you are however ) - the FACT is, Steiner's sentiments are the heart and soul of Waldorf education. I think it's best for parents to get a clear picture of what they were.

Anenome, you're not interrupting. Please ask whatever you like. You asked:

"I wonder if someone could tell me...where does the "Waldorf" come from...why are they not just called Steiner schools."

They are called "Steiner" schools in may places around the world. The name Waldorf came from the first school which was in the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory. It was initially a school for the children of the factory workers.

"and why are the walls all painted peach...I understand that it is to imitate the colour of flesh..but why is that supposed to be good?"

Steiner believed (and thus Waldorf teachers believe) that children, before their teeth change (age 7ish) are undergoing a process of "incarnation" - that is their mature spiritual being hasn't fully taken residence in their physical body. The flesh colored walls are intended to support the process of incarnation.

"And why did the Kindergarten leader I met have a big peach apron on? Do they all have those?"

More "fleshy" stuff... and no, I don't think all kindergarten teachers have those (at least not that I've seen... they certainly may for all I know).

"I'm tempted to add... "of Hitler"."

What, pray tell holds you back?

"As I said, I think some people feel that they have found an educational environment that upholds the same values as they do. I think that's an attraction."

"I don't doubt that. What were those again? "Goodness, truth, beauty"..."

Yep, these are all over the literature for my children's school and I haven't encountered what I would characterise as the gross lack of integrity that you describe.

"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?

"They are the tenets that Anthroposophy is based on. I guess "beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder."

I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty.

"I really can't imagine any parent seeing the elements that you saw: "dire, wishy washy, weird, ghastly, cold, dispassionate, strange, and bizarre" enrolling their child."

"And yet they enroll their children. I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially?"

No, they don't if that's their view. This is my impression and hence my statement.

"Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it?"

Certainly within the realm of possibility though not very probable IMO.

"At my kid's school, they lose 25% of their students every year... do you really think all those parents are pulling their kids because they're getting what they signed up for?"

I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education.

"As far as Steiner's sentiments go they don't strike me one way or another."

"Doesn't matter if they "strike you" or not-"

I might agree but that was the question.

"What, pray tell holds you back?"

Clearly - nothing. Some of their ideas were indistinguishable.

"Yep, these are all over the literature for my children's school and I haven't encountered what I would characterise as the gross lack of integrity that you describe."

I have no doubt your children's school is gushing with stuff like that. And I'm quite certain you have never encountered anything like what I describe. Aren't you on the board of directors of that school or something? Would you care to characterize other Waldorf schools in this regard then?

"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

"What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

NEVER!!!! So you agree that the things Steiner described are held as "truth" in Anthroposophy... correct? (Don't worry, I'm not going to ask you if you're an Anthroposophist ).

"I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty."

I'm sorry... you "were" not aware? Are you now? Because we had this discussion years ago... were you not "aware" then but since then you have been aware? Or did you continue to not be "aware" of these things after discussing them in detail?

"And yet they enroll their children. I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially?"

"No, they don't if that's their view. This is my impression and hence my statement."

Clearly some must at some schools - hence the huge turn-overs. People right here have seen the strange stuff... some initially, some not until years later. It often depends on how involved you are in the school. A lot of parents get more and more sucked-in... I mean... involved... as the years go by. That's often when they start to notice (or another parent notices and the word starts getting around).

"Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it?"

"Certainly within the realm of possibility though not very probable IMO."

Really? They don't try to hide the weird stuff? How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such? Do they, for instance, tell parents that the materialistic impulse of Ahriman resides in their TV set and their home computer? Or do they find somebody who recommends turning of the TV and hook their wagons to their arguments?

"I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education."

LMAO... yeah, that's ONE way of putting it.

"I might agree but that was the question."

Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely.

If you don't care what kind of academic education your kids get, and are willing to take the risk of you or your kids pissing off a Waldorf teacher or any other Anthro anywhere on the planet - and don't mind having Waldorf, in retaliation interrupt your child's education and friendships at a moment's notice - at any time during their enrollment in school, then Waldorf is also for you.

Pete asked Isenhart:

'So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"'

Isenhart replied:

'What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these'

That's a pretty telling reply, Isenhart - the simple fact that you don't want to answer that question.

To be fair, Diana, has ANY Anthroposophist, to your knowledge, answered that question? None has to my knowledge. Oh wait! What am I saying... yes, they have indeed answered that question many times... the answer: "Steiner is difficult."

Pete:"Clearly - nothing. Some of their ideas were indistinguishable."

Indistinguishable to you.

Pete:"I have no doubt your children's school is gushing with stuff like that. And I'm quite certain you have never encountered anything like what I describe. Aren't you on the board of directors of that school or something?"

No.

Pete:"Would you care to characterize other Waldorf schools in this regard then?"

No.

Pete:"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

"What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

Pete:"NEVER!!!!"

Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?

Pete:"So you agree that the things Steiner described are held as "truth" in Anthroposophy... correct? "(Don't worry, I'm not going to ask you if you're an Anthroposophist )."

Yes.

"I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty."

Pete:"I'm sorry... you "were" not aware?"

No need for you to be sorry since my awareness or lack thereof has nothing to do with you.

Pete:"Are you now?"

No.

Pete:"Because we had this discussion years ago... were you not "aware" then but since then you have been aware? Or did you continue to not be "aware" of these things after discussing them in detail?"

"I've never been aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I am aware that you believe them to be.

Pete:"And yet they enroll their children. I wonder why they didn't see the strange stuff initially?"

"No, they don't if that's their view. This is my impression and hence my statement."

Pete:"Clearly some must at some schools - hence the huge turn-overs."

Clearly some people must view the school in the terms northernrefugee39 decribed and still enroll their children? I don't think so. My school doesn't have a 25% turnover rate per year. I assume this doesn't include the graduating class at your school because if it did it actually would be pretty average. I think your school's number would be more meaningful compared with the same statistic for other private schools in your area. Maybe your school is an anomaly or maybe you live in a highly transient area. At any rate, I think as I already mentioned, this is certainly something a prospective parent could ask when considering any private school-what is their retention rate. It's something we took a hard look at when evaluating colleges.

Pete:"People right here have seen the strange stuff... some initially, some not until years later. It often depends on how involved you are in the school. A lot of parents get more and more sucked-in... I mean... involved... as the years go by. That's often when they start to notice (or another parent notices and the word starts getting around)."

I think if you are "creeped out" initially by a Kindergarten as I think Anenome said she was that you wouldn't enroll your child there. The question was what's wrong with these people that "fall for it" perhaps vulnerability?

Pete:"Could it be Waldorf teachers do their best to hide it?"

"Certainly within the realm of possibility though not very probable IMO."

Pete:"Really? They don't try to hide the weird stuff?"

I felt initially that there was a clubiness to the Waldorf Community here and you might view this as cultishness. I personally have a lot of experience with clubs so that's what it looked like to me. And my response was screw that-if you won't answer me to my satisfaction then I'll find someone who will. And so I did. I can only think of one time that this happened and my eldest was in first grade or K at the time.

Pete:"How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such?"

IMO, as best they can.

Pete:"Do they, for instance, tell parents that the materialistic impulse of Ahriman resides in their TV set and their home computer? Or do they find somebody who recommends turning of the TV and hook their wagons to their arguments?"

We had a media talk at a monthly parent meeting at least once a year. The observable effects of media on children in the classroom was what was most often discussed. That was what I, as a parent, cared about as well as my children's behavior and well being outside of school, of course.

This impulse that you speak of did come into discussion when cyberbullying and messaging nude pictures of classmates became big in the public schools here a few years ago.

I love the turn-off T.V. week campaign and participated in it before I ever heard of Waldorf Education but it took years and was like pulling teeth to get the local Waldorf schools to adopt this program.

"I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education."

Pete:"LMAO... yeah, that's ONE way of putting it."

It's the bottom line as I see it.

"I might agree but that was the question."

Pete:"Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely."

I don't agree.

Pete:"If you don't care what kind of academic education your kids get, and are willing to take the risk of you or your kids pissing off a Waldorf teacher or any other Anthro anywhere on the planet - and don't mind having Waldorf, in retaliation interrupt your child's education and friendships at a moment's notice - at any time during their enrollment in school, then Waldorf is also for you."

I agree-if this describes you-you are definitely in need of an education.