STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

Pete:"Clearly - nothing. Some of their ideas were indistinguishable."

Val:Indistinguishable to you.

Oh... OK - Watch for my next post then...

Pete:"I have no doubt your children's school is gushing with stuff like that. And I'm quite certain you have never encountered anything like what I describe. Aren't you on the board of directors of that school or something?"

Val: No.

Not affiliated with the school at all?

Pete:"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

Val: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

Pete:"NEVER!!!!"

Val: Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?

Pete: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society" - according to STEINER. I would never want my children to learn these "truths" - because as you know, according to Steiner, a man's place in society is dependent on his skin color.

Val: "I was not aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I've often said this very thing about beauty."

Pete:"I'm sorry... you "were" not aware?"

Val: "No need for you to be sorry since my awareness or lack thereof has nothing to do with you."

Except that you are being dishonest about it. If I tell you now that Anthroposophy is based on these tenets, will you be aware of it tomorrow?

Pete:"Because we had this discussion years ago... were you not "aware" then but since then you have been aware? Or did you continue to not be "aware" of these things after discussing them in detail?"

Val: "I've never been aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I am aware that you believe them to be."

So you are aware that those ideas exist in Anthroposophy... Correct? But you deny that they are the basis of Anthroposophy. What then, would you describe as the basis of Anthroposophy. Please be specific - not something obtuse like "love" or "freedom" - What are the basic tenets of Anthroposophy? If you don't know what they are, then you have no reason not to believe me when I tell you. In any case, anyone reading this will recognize you are dodging the question.

Val:"Clearly some people must view the school in the terms northernrefugee39 decribed and still enroll their children? I don't think so. My school doesn't have a 25% turnover rate per year. I assume this doesn't include the graduating class at your school because if it did it actually would be pretty average."

How would that be average? 4 kindergartens and 12 grades - 400 kids plus or minus. 100 kids per year is NOT the size of the graduating class.

Val: "I think your school's number would be more meaningful compared with the same statistic for other private schools in your area."

You have reason to believe other private schools in my area have attrition rates that high? I can assure you they are not.

"Maybe your school is an anomaly or maybe you live in a highly transient area."

Um... no. Do you require more straws to grasp at?

"At any rate, I think as I already mentioned, this is certainly something a prospective parent could ask when considering any private school-what is their retention rate. It's something we took a hard look at when evaluating colleges."

Yes - and of course it helps if the schools themselves don't lie to the parents directly about this.

Val: "I think if you are "creeped out" initially by a Kindergarten as I think Anenome said she was that you wouldn't enroll your child there."

She didn't!

Val: "The question was what's wrong with these people that "fall for it" perhaps vulnerability?"

LYING by Waldorf perhaps?

Pete:"Really? They don't try to hide the weird stuff?"

"I felt initially that there was a clubiness to the Waldorf Community here and you might view this as cultishness."

I have researched in great detail (even checked out library books) what constitutes a cult. Waldorf constitutes a cult.

Val: "I personally have a lot of experience with clubs so that's what it looked like to me."

To a man with a hammer, everything is a nail.

Pete:"How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such?"

Val: "IMO, as best they can."

Flatly LYING? That's the best they can do?

Pete:"Do they, for instance, tell parents that the materialistic impulse of Ahriman resides in their TV set and their home computer? Or do they find somebody who recommends turning of the TV and hook their wagons to their arguments?"

Val: "We had a media talk at a monthly parent meeting at least once a year. The observable effects of media on children in the classroom was what was most often discussed. That was what I, as a parent, cared about as well as my children's behavior and well being outside of school, of course."

That's what makes you a wonderful Waldorf parent, then. You are clueless about Waldorf by intention, apparently. Why on earth wouldn't you care, as a parent, that the teachers of your child believe spirits live in television sets? I guess, as they say, ignorance is bliss.

Val: "This impulse that you speak of did come into discussion when cyberbullying and messaging nude pictures of classmates became big in the public schools here a few years ago."

Really? How did that discussion go? Did Ahriman possess these public school children? Were they no longer human? Did Ahriman cause the cyberbullying?

Val: "I love the turn-off T.V. week campaign and participated in it before I ever heard of Waldorf Education but it took years and was like pulling teeth to get the local Waldorf schools to adopt this program."

Well, how can you turn your TV OFF, if you're not allowed to turn it ON?

"I think people pull their children out when the cost of the education exceeds the perceived value of the education."

Pete:"LMAO... yeah, that's ONE way of putting it."

Val:"It's the bottom line as I see it."

What - that Waldorf education has no value? I would agree.

"I might agree but that was the question."

Pete:"Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely."

Val: "I don't agree."

Really? Then where DO Anthroposophists send their kids to school?

Pete:"If you don't care what kind of academic education your kids get, and are willing to take the risk of you or your kids pissing off a Waldorf teacher or any other Anthro anywhere on the planet - and don't mind having Waldorf, in retaliation interrupt your child's education and friendships at a moment's notice - at any time during their enrollment in school, then Waldorf is also for you."

Val: "I agree-if this describes you-you are definitely in need of an education."

From what you said above, Val, it apparently describes you. You claim you don't want to know the deeper stuff behind Waldorf... so you're what Waldorf schools call a "drop off" parent - you drop your kids off and trust they will get a good education. Either that, or you are again being dishonest about your interest in Anthroposophy. If you have gone to the trouble of educating yourself on Waldorf, why do you seem so reluctant to share with us what you know? BTW, I've taken a peek at your Waldorf school's website. Hopefully you're not getting your information from there...

This parent pledge is from the parent handbook - note the TV pledge at the end:

"I will make every effort to
attend all parent evenings for
my child?s class. I understand
that my attendance helps ensure
that my child?s class has an
informed, active, and mutually
supportive parent body that
understands the curriculum and
its foundation.
I will read SMWS Parent
Information Handbooks to
familiarize myself with the
schools policies and practices.
I will read the bi-weekly Parent
Notes, and communications so
that I am informed about the
programs, policies, practice,
and community life of Shining
Mountain. In addition, I intend
to volunteer or contribute to
the three major school festivals
and Auction in some manner.
I understand that tuition alone
does not meet the school?s
budgeted expenses yearly,
and will strive to participate
in the SMWS Annual Fund,
with a heartfelt gift, to the
best of my ability.
Finally, I am aware of the
school?s policy to limit or
eliminate TV (and similar
activities such as Nintendo,
videos, video games, DVD?s,
movies, etc.) for my children.
I understand that my support
of this policy in my home will
support my child?s healthy
neural, brain and emotional
development and will help cerate
a class environment that fully
supports my child?s development."

As someone who previous to my brush with Waldorf schools last week had no knowledge at all of the system...I have to say that we sensed something odd about the school as we drove down their driveway...it was intangeable...just a "feeling" which fair enough, you can't expect everyone to experience...but how anyone can walk into those strange rooms and speak to the strange teachers and not hear alarm bells straight away is beyond me.

The place reeked of paranoia...it was in the teachers reluctance to answer questions..she just started to rearrange the "play logs" or whatever they're called...it was in another staff members gift of a branch of Bay leaves as we entered the building..(Bay is cosidered to be highly protective against bad energy and clairvoyant attack)...we also noticed that the kids seemed slightly "wild"..not free and generous in their play, but a bit crazed...we stumbled upon four kids hiding in a little trod area playing poker for money! They were about 10 or 11 and when they saw us with the teacher who was guiding us they just sniggered and turned back to their gane...weird all round. Maybe this school was a particularly full on one..who knows? I just wonder wether they sensed our concerns right away as they were quite unreceptive to us.

Anenome, the school you visited sounds very full on anthro! Although everything you say resonates with me. When we first visited, they were "on show" as it wear, and obviously made an efort to sell themselves in the best possible light; the kids statred and were unresponsive, but we put it down to a kind of reserved shynes and found it slightly sweet.
As to the hereford school, there was a report commissined bty the government called the Woods Report, before their academy status was allocated; this report was written by what appears to be a husband and wife team, who although it never says they're anthroposophists, they seem extremely receptive to it; ( previous papers by one or other of them are things like spirituality for head teachers kind of stuff)
The report manages to talk about the whole child, head heart hands, thinking, willing feeling, and mentions anthroposophy, but as a spiritual angle ina way, not the full on belief/religion/cult . It is extraordinarily biased; the schhool has to comprmise a bit, in their curriculum, but not enough; some anthros don't agree obviously, with the compromises. It's scandalous that they ever got these millions of poiunds, and shows that they can pull the wool over the eyes of people very easily.

Sorry about spelling, wasn't fully concentrating, ( three kids arguing around me..)

Northern...the funny thing about the Hereford school is that if you visit their website the Anthroposophy info. link is permanently broken ....but to be fair the kids pictures seem to have the colour black in them and they're not just wet on wet. I know what you mean about the kids......I'm typing with one hand right now due to DD number 2 lying on the other

"(Bay is cosidered to be highly protective against bad energy and clairvoyant attack)"

Bay leaves are a choking hazard.

Pete:"Clearly - nothing. Some of their ideas were indistinguishable."

Val:Indistinguishable to you.

"Oh... OK - Watch for my next post then..."

I highly doubt that their ideas will become distinguishable for you in your next post though you certainly do seem to have the ability to distinguish between the thoughts of different authors. Later in this very post, fe, you distinguish your own thought from those attributed to Baruch, Maslow, and Twain.

Now, unfortunately I will have to come back to the rest of your post as I answered it once this morning but whilst driving the kiddies to their morning swim the dogs apparently took my computer offline. Such is life, you know, in the fast lane.

"I highly doubt that their ideas will become distinguishable for you in your next post though you certainly do seem to have the ability to distinguish between the thoughts of different authors."

Well, I suspect the reason for some of the indistinguishable similarities might be that Steiner's ideas probably fueled Hitlers (there is certainly speculation about this) - as Hitler was very much into the racist esoteric stuff Steiner and Blavatsky produced. And Hitler's ideas, in turn, fuel the NAAWP, so the connection of ideas may indeed not be so much a case of different ideas by different authors but Steiner's ideas developed over time.

Pete, you have more patience than I have

Anenome, i couldn't find any reference to anthroposophy on the Hereford site...no surprises there then... if you put the word into their search engine, an old document comes up , describing what they ought to do , one of the things being , to try nd inform parents more about anthroposophy. That's the only thing. So, they didn't get far there then.....
The pictures are attractive I must say; but you know what, in reality, each of those pics wpuld have been repeated 20 times , exact replicas, because they kids all copy from the teacher. So the web site is clever. The schools show it truthfully, with class room walls covered with identical paintings and drawings.
isenhart, I'm finding it difficult to converse with you in any way really. Do you discuss or talk like this in rl? In riddles and clever clever non answers?
You don't address the issues atall really; game playing. I'm bored with it.

Pete:"Not affiliated with the school at all?"

Depends on what you mean by affiliated-if you mean that my children have attended a particular Waldorf School-then yes I am affiliated.

Pete:"So, is it true that black people "burn from the inside", and that they are spiritually "childlike" - as Steiner declared? Is it true that Jews have "outlived their usefulness" and should abandon "their very way of thinking"? Those MUST be spiritual truths, right?"

Val: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society and when do you want your children to know these truths?"

Pete:"NEVER!!!!"

Val: Never what? What truth don't you want your children exposed to ever?

Pete: "What is true about the nature of man, about society, about man's place in society" - according to STEINER. I would never want my children to learn these "truths" - because as you know, according to Steiner, a man's place in society is dependent on his skin color."

No, I don't know that. What you don't want your children exposed to, apparently, are what you consider to be falsehoods. My question was what is true and when would it be appropriate for children to learn. My children are exposed to all kinds of false statements from many sources and I correct them as I am able.

Val: "No need for you to be sorry since my awareness or lack thereof has nothing to do with you."

Pete:"Except that you are being dishonest about it. If I tell you now that Anthroposophy is based on these tenets, will you be aware of it tomorrow?"

No, I'm not. Tomorrow I will continue to be aware that you believe anthropsophy is based on these tenets.

Val: "I've never been aware that anthroposophy was based on these tenets though I am aware that you believe them to be."

Pete:"So you are aware that those ideas exist in Anthroposophy... Correct? But you deny that they are the basis of Anthroposophy. What then, would you describe as the basis of Anthroposophy. Please be specific - not something obtuse like "love" or "freedom" - What are the basic tenets of Anthroposophy?"

I have never understood there to be any basic tenets involved. If you're asking for a central idea, for me, it would be that man is a three-fold being whose consciousness evolves over time.

Pete:"If you don't know what they are, then you have no reason not to believe me when I tell you. In any case, anyone reading this will recognize you are dodging the question."

The reader is free, as you are, to make their own judgments.

Pete:"How would that be average? 4 kindergartens and 12 grades - 400 kids plus or minus. 100 kids per year is NOT the size of the graduating class."

True, but then again, zero percent is not the national or the regional average attrition rate for either Waldorf Schools or private schools.

Val: "I think your school's number would be more meaningful compared with the same statistic for other private schools in your area."

Pete:"You have reason to believe other private schools in my area have attrition rates that high? I can assure you they are not."

No, your argument would be more effective when presented with comparative data, IMO but then perhaps we have different opinions about what constitutes effective communication.

Val:"Maybe your school is an anomaly or maybe you live in a highly transient area."

Pete"Um... no. Do you require more straws to
grasp at?"

No, your school is not an anomaly?

Val:"At any rate, I think as I already mentioned, this is certainly something a prospective parent could ask when considering any private school-what is their retention rate. It's something we took a hard look at when evaluating colleges."

Pete:"Yes - and of course it helps if the schools themselves don't lie to the parents directly about this."

Are you saying that this has been your experience or the experience of other parents/prospective parents that you know? Or do you suspect and speculate that schools do this?

Val: "I think if you are "creeped out" initially by a Kindergarten as I think Anenome said she was that you wouldn't enroll your child there."

Pete:She didn't!

Right. She said she was "freaked out."

Val: "The question was what's wrong with these people that "fall for it" perhaps vulnerability?"

Pete:LYING by Waldorf perhaps?

You mean you think something along the lines of, "You just caught us on a bad day" is going to salvage an experience such as Anenome described? Parents that have a visceral repulsion to a school setting are not apt to enroll their children.

Pete:"How do they explain their views on the things I described in my previous post - late reading, vaccinations, TV and such?"

Val: "IMO, as best they can."

Pete:"Flatly LYING? That's the best they can do?"

They don't lie to me as far as I know.

Val: "We had a media talk at a monthly parent meeting at least once a year. The observable effects of media on children in the classroom was what was most often discussed. That was what I, as a parent, cared about as well as my children's behavior and well being outside of school, of course."

Pete:That's what makes you a wonderful Waldorf parent, then.

Perhaps, though I don't consider myself a wonderful Waldorf Parent or even a wonderful parent.

Pete:You are clueless about Waldorf by intention, apparently. Why on earth wouldn't you care, as a parent, that the teachers of your child believe spirits live in television sets? I guess, as they say, ignorance is bliss.

As a parent, I'm much more concerned about the content of the programing my children watch than anything that might live inside the T.V.

Val: "This impulse that you speak of did come into discussion when cyberbullying and messaging nude pictures of classmates became big in the public schools here a few years ago."

Pete:Really?

Really. There was also the issue of a parent discovering that the parental blocks on computers work only to a very limited degree.

Pete:How did that discussion go?

It seemed to me that, even in middle school, parents still sought to protect their children, in this case, from cyberbullying and pornography and were eager to understand the school's perspective.

Pete:Did Ahriman possess these public school children? Were they no longer human? Did Ahriman cause the cyberbullying?

Not as far as I know. Do you think that's what happened?

Val: "I love the turn-off T.V. week campaign and participated in it before I ever heard of Waldorf Education but it took years and was like pulling teeth to get the local Waldorf schools to adopt this program."

Pete:Well, how can you turn your TV OFF, if you're not allowed to turn it ON?

If you never turn your T.V. on then I would think that you have no need to turn it off.

Val:"It's the bottom line as I see it."

Pete:What - that Waldorf education has no value? I would agree.

That Waldorf schools as well as private schools in general have hit the "tuition wall" where the tuition spent in more and more cases exceeds the perceived value of the education.

Pete:"Oh, there's no question. If you are an Anthroposophist, or are in alignment with Anthroposophy and Steiner's views, Waldorf education is for you... absolutely."

Val: "I don't agree."

Pete:Really? Then where DO Anthroposophists send their kids to school?

Really. In my experience-to schools of all sorts for a variety of reasons. Likewise, a critic of Waldorf Education could have their children enrolled in a Waldorf School.

Pete:From what you said above, Val, it apparently describes you. You claim you don't want to know the deeper stuff behind Waldorf... so you're what Waldorf schools call a "drop off" parent - you drop your kids off and trust they will get a good education. Either that, or you are again being dishonest about your interest in Anthroposophy. If you have gone to the trouble of educating yourself on Waldorf, why do you seem so reluctant to share with us what you know? BTW, I've taken a peek at your Waldorf school's website. Hopefully you're not getting your information from there...

I don't recall ever making such a claim unless you think whatever crap's residing inside my T.V. is deep stuff but I work hard in many ways to ensure that my children receive an excellent education which they do. One of those ways was educating myself on Waldorf, as you put it, but I wonder if there's a difference in your mind between being educated and being informed and how one knows if he/she has been sufficiently educated and/or informed.

Pete:This parent pledge is from the parent handbook - note the TV pledge at the end:

I also don't recall stating the name of my children's school on this list nor our place of residence which can be gleaned from the information you provided. Did you presume to provide this information in spite of my anonymity? If so, I consider this very disrespectful to say the least.

Pete to Isenhart:

"Either that, or you are again being dishonest about your interest in Anthroposophy."

It's the latter. She's deeply involved and has been for many years, and she's a serious anthroposophist. Her contributions here are disingenuous. Most forums that she joins, her contributions are disingenuous. Eventually folks realize she is actually making fun of them, this is her idea of a good game. Basically she's as phony as they come.

Is there anything in all that dialog that requires answering?

First, you are correct, I mistakenly posted information that could identify your school... I should not have connected you personally with the information I posted. Having realized I did this, I immediately looked for a way to edit my post but there doesn't seem to be any. Please accept my apology in this regard and please know that I would never, no matter how much we might disagree in our discussions here, intentionally post information that is intended to be private.

On to better things...

This one bears repeating for it comic value:

"I have never understood there to be any basic tenets involved. If you're asking for a central idea, for me, it would be that man is a three-fold being whose consciousness evolves over time."

So, isenhart, the "central idea" of Anthroposophy is basically what is central to EVERY OTHER SPIRITUAL PATH? Oh, I see... so Anthroposophy is basically mainstream spirituality according to your understanding of it. Correct? I may have to post a few things I believe are unique to Anthroposophy... so you can explain to me if these fall within the "central idea" of Anthroposophy. Additionally, I'll ask you to help me examine what would happen to Anthroposophy if we take out some of what I consider to be the basic tenets of Anthroposophy - racial hierarchies for example. Would you accept my invitation to participate in that discussion? Because I think if we look at what happens to Anthroposophy without racism, it pretty much falls apart. Racism is the framework for Steiner's physical human hierarchies. Just like Steiner set up spiritual hierarchies he set up hierarchies of human forms according to race. Then he went on to create hierarchies in the animal, plant and mineral worlds as well. So without the human hierarchies, there's a significant hole in Steiner's hierarchal structure. This is all very clear in his writings. You should read them sometime. Then you might become "aware" of these tenets of Anthroposophy.

"I don't recall ever making such a claim unless you think whatever crap's residing inside my T.V. is deep stuff"

It doesn't matter what I think... it matters what Waldorf teachers think. So that's another thing we can explore here. But we're approaching our 1000 post limit... maybe I'd better start a new thread. What should we call it? Maybe "Weirdness of Waldorf Teachers - The Unauthorized Story."

Anyway - I don't see any point in attempting to answer anything else above - unless you feel you've made some sort of stinging point in any of that - or if any of it has raised a question for anyone that I might be able to answer... please ask.

How did everyone do on the quiz?

"Do you discuss or talk like this in rl? In riddles and clever, clever non-answers?"

I asked my teenagers since I figured they could judge this best. My eldest said, "Tell whoever's asking that you're totally insane." The younger one said, "You can."

"First, you are correct, I mistakenly posted information that could identify your school... I should not have connected you personally with the information I posted. Having realized I did this, I immediately looked for a way to edit my post but there doesn't seem to be any. Please accept my apology in this regard and please know that I would never, no matter how much we might disagree in our discussions here, intentionally post information that is intended to be private.'

I accept your apology for this most recent incident. There was another prior to this one as well. If you have a desire to edit your post then I suggest that you contact the mumsmet people and ask them to strike the name of my children's school from this record.

You know I just love it, Diana, when you call me the "A" word.

isenhart, it's so blatently obvious you are playing games and ignoring all salient points. You're doing almost as good a job as Sune in convincing people to steer so clear of Steiner schools you won't se them for dust.
Steiner's entire anthroposophical constructions are built around the notion of reincarnation, spiritual hierarchical growth gained by climbing the ladder of races, jettisonning the "lower primitive" and "evil" races on the way; without this tenet, the system crumbles.
In other beliefs, like Buddism, Hinduism, Sihkism for instance, reincarnation involves one's soul coming back within the animal and plant kingdom too; in anthroposophy, it doesn't, it uses race as the ladder climbed to higher planes.

As far as drop out numbers in school, the school our kids went to had over 90 children when we arrived; this dropped to 35 when we left; this year three more families are leaving; the turn over rate at Steiner schools I know is phenonomal.

As to why people don't pick up on the anthroposophy and strangeness; firstly, we were lied to, directly; in the first instance, many people have arrived at the "alternative" route of Steiner schools because they are disillusioned with mainstream, testing, lack of creativity; the Steiner schools play on this, selling themselves as the opposite. On visits, always pre arranged, never spontaneous, a show is played out. Questions aren't properly answered, relevent reading matter and advice are extremely selective. They hoodwink even the most persistent enquirers;
why is it that they rarely mention anthroposophy in the literature do you think?Because it's difficult? Of course not; because any sanr person would run a mile if they thought this would be used as a foundation stone for educating their kids. But then your kids think you're insane isenhart, si s'pose it's quite fitting

Pete, I meant to comment on the quotes of Steiner and Hitler, SCARY.
Any comments isenhart? Now Pete has made you aware of this race issue in Steiner education? Why aren't you addressing this issue? It's a fairly huge one isn't it?

Oh look, Wiki on reincarnation, after Hinduism, Buddism etc, here's anthroposophy, the first sentence, the main point

"Anthroposophy
Reincarnation plays an important role in the ideas of Anthroposophy, a spiritual movement founded by Rudolf Steiner. Steiner described the human soul as gaining new experiences in every epoch and in a variety of races or nations"
(my bold)

I'm new on this board, and I'm looking here, and posting here, because I have been considering a Waldorf school. I have been extensively reading both 'sides' on the internet, and I'm getting some Steiner books as well, and I'm wondering....do any of you think that there are ANY valuable things about this style of education, i.e., ANYTHING worth salvaging from the shipwreck that your experiences have been?

I ask this because I've been reading some more mainstream books and applying some recommended things that seem applicable. For example, I read to my 4 year old and my 1 year old (I know this is not recommended in Waldorf schools, but that's ridiculous), anyhow, I've been lighting a candle and making a kind of circle. They now sit quietly and I can read a whole book! Maybe even two books, but there are limits, they are kids after all! Anyway, its been 2 months of this, there is something about the candle. I've made little felt angels for them, and they love them, I mean they really love them. And many more things. The Waldorf recommended books are fantastic for my kids, the plant dyed playsilks, the wood toys, toys that kids can project imagination onto, connection to the natural world, connection to myth, and ritual, to name a few things.

My son has been diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, and I swear this has helped him beyond belief. We do all sorts of things, gluten-free, milk-free, acupressure, social stories, neurotherapeutics, all the organic food we can afford, but these simple things have made him so much calmer. Some weeks there are no flare-ups, no problems. He's very high functioning, but lately his therapist is thinking its possible he will grow out of this. Its possible its all coincidence, but there is something to some of it, I notice it with the quality of both my children's attention, and their general happiness. I just wish we could take the good parts out of the crazy.

Steiner did also say that pesticides and forced breeding would eventually cause many problem in our apiculture. It sounds commonsensical, but its far seeing for its time. Its unrelated, and its possible for anyone to be correct about some things, I guess. What I'm really wondering, is why did people listen to Steiner at all? Did he have money? Was he personally charismatic? Or did some of his ideas, not all of them, but some....have some real therapeutic value for a segment of the population?

I wrote more than I intended, and I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate. I'm just trying to work out the good and the bad, so I can get the best out of it, whether its finding things I can teach, or looking for a school that has some non-scary Waldorf tendencies. I'm really sad and angry about the bad things that have happened to some of the children in these schools. It isn't fair that people do these things to children. I wish there weren't this awful cloud of craziness about Waldorf schools. Its sad that there aren't more options for our kids in the world.

One other thing. I feel when I read Steiner, and bear in mind that I have not read one of his original printings yet...I feel that at least some of what he is writing is myth. Its a symbol. Like, for example, Freud, or Kepler...their writings have a mythical storytelling quality. And....some of what they write is laughably absurd.

Or, the Bible, for example. Much of that cannot be taken literally. However, there is a reality to good myth. I can't really explain that to my satisfaction yet, but it is tied up in spirituality and religion. For example, the etheric body probably doesn't come in just as a child loses her or his baby teeth. sigh, I don't really believe in the etheric, necessarily. Piaget is much easier for me. Its missing the good story though. The gravity and mystery that gives more meaning to life. Its very hard to explain. I haven't given up yet though.

Hi Sara, thanks for such a thought provoking and great post. I agre with almost all you say; the way you are bringing up your kids is how we so wished the schools were; it was all we had hoped for when we went down the Steiner route. Many many times I, and others have said if only the schools existed without the anthroposophy, but they exist for the anthroposophy unfortunately. The schools are there in the hope that some of the children will be awakened to the spirtual, and be able to lead humankind in future epochs.
As far as the autistic spectrum gos, in recent months i've discussed with two families who have had appaling experiences at Steiner school, one with aspergers, a discussion here on mumsnet
and another much worse one actually, on netmums. If you want to find it, you can search for it under the thread title "school admits to not understanding aspergers" or you could put Steiner in the search. I'll try and find the direct link later( am not on my own computer atm)
You're probably aware of Steiner's ideas about autism, dyslexia, even left handedness. They are due to incarnation problems. He thought people with learning disabilities were "demons in human form". Having had close contact with a cmphill community, I canvouch for the fact that today, this is still a belief; Those words not spelt out, but phrases like "We don't believe these people are as they are for the same reasons as you" and other references implying this were said to me a few times.

Steiner believed that "evil" could be seen in people's physical appearance, a very dangerous path of labeling

I'm not surprised you've not read all Steiner! I doubt there are many people who have! There's masses and masses....
I'm not entirely sure that the beliefs are metaphorical though, (although that would explain much.) In his work, time after time , he reiterates statements as "scientifically true", and often says that all he is saying is "true".
I know that many anthroposophists and Steiner parents/teachers/camphill people who truly believe , for instance, in "elemental beings" like gnomes, sylphs and fairies; grown women who have told me they've seen them. It's one thing to tell kids they exist, to keep the awe, magic and reverence of childhood alive, but......
They also believe the Atlantis myth, (and Steiner's theory of evolution,) which is Plato's metaphor. It's not necessarily any more bonkers, imo, than creationists actually, but at least creationists are open and upfront. Anthroposophists are secretive at best, liars at worst. They propogate a sense of cult.

One of the worst things for us , in the end, was, and there was a build up of terrible hings, is the race beliefs, because it personally touched our family, and is so subtle, so hard to pinpoint.
There is a pervading sense of superiority among Steiner followers and anthroposophists, which is very appealing and attractive; people want to be a part of that; we do lack a spiritual element in our lives; if there is a community which seems to have got it so right, and are so sure that they have, they are bound to attract.

There are good things about the schools and communities. The craft( not the art, it's proscribed and uncreative imo), the music and singing, the outdoor thins like gardening and building. I liked the fact that they were taught myths too; if only it was all done well, it could be so exciting and creative, rather than this boring droning on of teachers, with no other visual or aural stimulation. There is nothing on the walls but watery steiner pictures, no books, only chalk drawings on the board by the class teacher, and his/her copied notes. It is DEADENING. And is meant to be unstimulating.

"So, isenhart, the "central idea" of Anthroposophy is basically what is central to EVERY OTHER SPIRITUAL PATH?"

No.

"Oh, I see... so Anthroposophy is basically mainstream spirituality according to your understanding of it. Correct?"

No.