STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

Yes; I'm a Steiner teacher who was called in to a state school as the school's "artist in residence"; they felt the need for some creative input from the Steiner sector. The teachers there expressed their admiration for how integrated creativity is within the Steiner system, whereas they are desperately trying to survive (their words) within a system that is trying to choke their - and the students' - creativity.

I've known many adults who are graduates of Anthroposophy schools. A lack of social skills was glaringly apparent in many of them. Hardly surprising, because I saw the same lack of social skills in many Anthroposophy school teachers. Where you have deception, you don't have good social skills. Where you have a cult that categorizes people into levels of spiritual superiority, you don't have good social skills. Where you have a belief that bad things happen to people because of something bad they did in a previous life, you don't have good social skills. As Northern says, pretending that Steiner schools produce students with good social skills is another myth promoted by Anthroposophists.

Parents can take credit for good social skills their Steiner school children might have.

"Isenhart, you may think that by not sending your kids to Steiner school that you are sacrificing them, I think the opposite!"

This had never crossed my mind.

"I think to put your kid in a system which promotes a cult like pseudo religion is a big sacrifice."

Yes, I understood that you thought this. I also thought you thought you did this, albeit unwittingly.

"But if you meant that by not removing them for 2/3 years, and trying to work around the anthropsophy, and trying not to disrupt their childhood by thrusting them into a new envioronment, agonising over what to do because we had been lied to, yup, we did sacrifice them."

See above.

"And yes, the guilt is massive; but subsiding day by day as we see our happy, creative, well adjusted children, return to their natural state, rather than the subdued, bullied, bored dazed children they were with at Steiner school."

At least they weren't subdued, bullied, bored, or dazed themselves.

I am picturing the teachers at my sons' Steiner School. Out of the 11 full-timers (3 KG and 8 class teachers), there are three who would not seem distinctly odd at any mainstream social event and one of those is not Steiner trained.

"I am picturing the teachers at my sons' Steiner School. Out of the 11 full-timers (3 KG and 8 class teachers), there are three who would not seem distinctly odd at any mainstream social event and one of those is not Steiner trained."

I am picturing Raconteur, the Steiner teacher on this thread lecturing to the state school teachers.

Isenhart wrote: "I am picturing Raconteur, the Steiner teacher on this thread lecturing to the state school teachers."

Yes, I can hear Raconteur now, making all sorts of claims about Steiner education that are not supported by mainstream studies. I can also hear what Raconteur is not saying to the state school teachers--that Steiner was an occultist; that Steiner's theories are based on his alleged clairvoyance; that the real agenda of Steiner education is to prepare students for the next epoch in Steiner's fantasy of racial evolution; that some learning disabled children might be demons in human form; that Anthroposophical science includes nonsense such as there being four kingdoms consisting of vegetables, minerals, animals and... distinct and separate from animals... human beings! that children in Steiner schools are categorized by the negative traits of a primitive theory of four temperaments, that blob painting on wet paper can help children see a non-material world that is populated by gnomes, undines, archangels and all sorts of other supernatural creatures. Yes, we could fill a book with what Raconteur is not telling the state school teachers.

"Yes, I can hear Raconteur now, making all sorts of claims about Steiner education that are not supported by mainstream studies. I can also hear what Raconteur is not saying to the state school teachers..."

Perhaps your invitation was lost in the mail, Margaret.

Power/Margaret well said, a true picture.
Raconteur, did you romanticise the Steiner picture do you think? Did you mention all those points Margaret/Power posted? Did you even mention anthroposophy? Reincarnation? Did any of the teachers who were so bowled over by the beautiful natural sing songy childhood promated by Steiner schools think to ask why things were done as they were? Why perhaps, the paintings wee all watery? Did you say that was because to remind these children of the spirit world they had recently emerged from? I'm sure the teachers sat there feeling woefully inadequate as the beautifull myth of Steiner school was paraded before them.

isenhart, I'm sorry, I don't understand you, what are you getting at? My kids were subdued, bored and bullied, not dazed though, they had enough of the real world outside of the Steiner cult to have their feet firmly on the ground; but they were often unhappy , yes. Their teachers didn't let on though; they said " She's always fine when I see her* and " She's winding you up" They lied about that too. The only way one of their class teachers was found out, was when the daughter of an anthropsophist told the story of what went on the class and playground; then people listened. Alot came out into the open when people began to listen, but it was hushed up, covered over, teachers "left" and went on to teach at other well established schools. Plus ca change.
They are so well practised at mistruths, distorting reality( well, that's no surprise considering Steiner's record of "scientific reality") that it was natural for them.

Isenhart, are your children still in school?

Raconteur - what would you say to most of the people on this thread who say that Steiner is a cult, etc? Bagelbird said she was interested in the other side of the arguement......me too!

Do you believe in gnomes?

"Isenhart, are your children still in school?"

Yes, the term doesn't end for two more weeks here.

I keep on checking this thread waiting for someone to convince me that all the anti-steiner comments are just lies made up by mad people but it's just not happening.

I think I remember someone saying that visits to steiner schools/class room viewing is always pre-arranged. What do you think would happen if I just turned up and wanted to see some of the classes?

Also is the anthroposophy stuff even taught in the kindergarten?

thanks all

Hi all

Bagelbird and Sprocketgir I wish I could tell you it's as good as it 'appears' but I can't, I wanted it to work, even when there were very loud alarm bells ringing.

All I can conclude from being involved in steiner education and living in a steiner community is that quite simply its a cult.

If you are seeking an alternative education, there are other schools that may be less esoteric see human scale education

This thread isn't an isolated case, if you wish to seek further clarification search through the previous steiner threads here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=487528#10069248

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=2402&threadid=411029#8348359

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=24844#608108

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=80302#1759398

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=329287#6667086

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=99648#2162019

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=275284#5504318

marker#8

www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=43&threadid=416171#8447650

Hi Sprocketgirl
if you met me a few years ago I was very pro steiner. I thought I had found the holy grail, we moved area, changed our lives. Friends outside of the school did try and dampen my enthusiasm, they suggested it was a little too alternative, a bit bonkers - I refused to listen, I had the utmost pity for them, they were 'outsiders' they didn't understand, and the classic 'if only every child has access to such a wonderful education'.

I call myself Barking, not because I am one of the 'mad people' making this up, the experience has sent me very nearly loopy, I am still surrounded by these people and their darling indigo children.

It all looks so beautiful on the surface, its very subtle this uneasiness we all talk about, it creeps up on you as you begin to ask questions. Isenhart demonstrates it beautifully here - with more questions, holding a mirror up to your enquiry so they carefully suggest that you aren't trusting the path, maybe you're not spiritually ready for this little journey. It challenges your sense of belonging to the community or as George Bush so eloquently put 'Are you with us or against us?'

I would love to be proven wrong - go see for yourself, not at the next summer fayre, join for a year and tell us what you find

Sprocket- I'm not lying! Hi Barking, it was interesting to read the thread from 4 yrs ago or so, ( long before I discovered mumsnet) - I'd never read it. There were more people saying it was cult like and anthroposophy being deliberately covered up then too. Not many people coming on to support the system.
Barking, what you say about the questions which answer your questions is a great observation; always so sweetly put though, but never answering you; we had silences too; no answers, questions back and silences.
Cult.
Sprocket, the people who sing Steiner's praises are either died in the wool anthroposophists, who will lie through their teeth to pretend the bonkers stuff isn't there, or they really have no clue, they have listened to what they've been told, and will not have read Steiner themselves.
If you turn up at the school, they wil probably say it's "inappropriate" to look in on a class- that's what we were told, as if it's breaking some spell or something. But they're terified anyone will see/hear anthroposophic nonsense being used in the class, or bored, bullied shouted at children.

Hi Northern spiritual ping-pong I call it! But these people aren't spiritual, they are the most selfish disturbed people I have ever met. Oh so beautiful like their surroundings but very very dangerous!

The 'positive language' they employ is rather like a combination of NVC non-violent communication (snort! yes the irony is killing me) which is big in the schools now together with Landmark, Biographical counselling and Heartspheres. It's just part of the big self-help industry calling itself natural/spiritual.

Their response shines the heavenly light on the person enquiring, so even if your child has been bullied, it is reflected back at you oh so delicately: 'So what I hear you saying is you observed x pushing Y? That must have felt really difficult for you etc. Sound familiar? On the one hand listening but on the other a little obtuse? It potentially could be a great model for problem solving, the problem is the children don't follow it and it relies on everyone to follow the same model and if you aren't aware of what they are doing you are left in the dark and very very frustrated.

The sweetness that you talk about Northern, together with the light sing song voice, but underneath these people is such rage, such anger bubbling contained underneath! Which brings me to the idea of 'containment' it's a big thing at the school, this holding together, wrapping oneself, holding oneself in cloth, wool - the feet and hands always to be covered.

Sprocketgirl, I remember when I first looked into steiner education, I read about it in a magazine called 'Natural Parent' and later in an article in the Guardian. I took it at face value, I trusted the writers and when I first observed what I thought was a natural education I mistakingly saw a meaningful way to learn, I attached all this stuff to the little wooden kitchen, the planting, the singing, the cooking. It all 'appeared' to honour the child, I didn't have the confidence to realise I could do all these things myself in the home. As time has gone on, I see a similar article every couple of years printed in the Guardian - I never questioned the writer's motives, I suspect there is a link with the school there, it's a great pr campaign for all those new vunerable parents who want to do the very best for their child. They sold it to me.

If you are looking for the meaning of life don't look to a steiner school to do it for you. The meaning of life is just that - the meaning you give to your own life and that of your children, your family, it's within. One shoudn't have to subscribe or pay for it.

Sprocket asks:
"What do you think would happen if I just turned up and wanted to see some of the classes?"

Try it and see. My guess is you will not be allowed into the class... ANY class - especially as a surprise visitor.

"Also is the anthroposophy stuff even taught in the kindergarten?"

Absolutely! Concepts like reincarnation are brought in right away. The "Rainbow Bridge" story is practically universal in Waldorf kindergartens and is filled with images of angels, heaven/earth and incarnation/reincarnation - even a weird twist undermining fathers in some versions.

Other Anthroposophical ideas brought in kindergarten include Eurythmy, of course, and again reincarnation through metaphors like butterflies. Christian themes are also apparent in Waldorf kindergartens and a Rafael's Madonna picture will be on the wall and the kids may be making yarn crosses.

Nature table, gnomes, silphs, undines, nature spirits, stories involving nature spirits make up the substance of play, holidays, all themes. Advent spiral = light/darkness themes... Michael/dragon = good/evil themes... Rainbow Bridge = heaven/hell/reincarnation... there's lots of Anthroposophy and the foundation laid for some more-or-less universal spiritual concepts that will be redefined later.

It's never too early to start indoctrination...

Sprocketgirl - I absolutely support what Barking, Northern, PeteK and PowerofJoy are saying and I have six years experience on which to base that agreement.

At my son's current secondary school, they have frequent parent tours - classes are used to parents just appearing in the doorway to observe for a few minutes, unannounced. What you see is what you get.

I was NEVER given the option of observing a class lesson at the Steiner School, even as a kindergarten parent whose child was due to go to class one. Indeed I NEVER saw parents observing class lessons, which seems astonishing to me now

Hi Janni and PeteK
Another thing with the positive language is that it allows the school to ignore any issues by not admitting to them.
If you don't admit to a problem there isn't one!
They wouldn't use the word ignore, they would employ a softer favourable substitute.
After all the steiner movement grew from the same country famous for their use of the euphemism

When I finally admitted to one of the parents why I left and how I felt so upset, angry lied to and disillusioned, she replied : 'You made yourself feel like that'.
another ex-steiner parent that I know locally who also had a bad time was told that 'maybe it's your karma'.

"Isenhart demonstrates it beautifully here - with more questions, holding a mirror up to your enquiry so they carefully suggest that you aren't trusting the path, maybe you're not spiritually ready for this little journey. It challenges your sense of belonging to the community or as George Bush so eloquently put 'Are you with us or against us?"

I prefer the, "Whoever is not against us is for us" formulation myself.

I prefer the, "Whoever is not against us is for us" formulation myself.

And there lies the rotten core Isenhart, as Northern has stated in previous posts, parents are attracted to steiner for what it isn't not what it actually is

Yes Barking, I couldn't agree more.
I've just been reading some threads
[http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=683104&highlight=steiner+waldorf&page=28 here] which may interest Sprocket. Some Steiner waldorf recovery forum from US. A Steiner teacher, again echoing the anthroposhy in the curriculum, how the schools are there to gently awaken children to their destiny.
It's worth reading. And worth reading some of the comments frommothers who have suddenly ralised, after wondering what it was that seemed strange and cult like. one woman says she felt herself go white as a sheet as she read these people's stories....

"And there lies the rotten core Isenhart, as Northern has stated in previous posts, parents are attracted to steiner for what it isn't not what it actually is"

Well, you know what they say, barking, "One person's rotten core is another person's religion."

forum about Steiner Waldorf and anthroposhy