STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

My 11 year old told me today how much he liked having text books to work from. Why did we never have text books at the Steiner School?

'Because mummy didn't think to ask whether the school had any books in it' is what I should have said...

The Margulies sisters' father is an Anthroposophist so that no doubt added to the comfort level they felt in going to Steiner schools as they moved from one place to another.

"Why did we never have text books at the Steiner School?"

Because then the parents could see what the children are really studying.

Isenhart, interesting that you don't agree that telling the truth about the belief system which supports the curriculum would be honest and truthful. I'm glad you're happy that many families are kept in the dark; it goes along with the anthroposophists idea that all children should be allowed to have this spiritual -indoctrination- education foistered on them.

Ok - this has taken a long time to read. I have switched my usual name as I want to remain as anonymous on this issue as possible - have RL friends who I have not discussed my plans with.
We have 2 children, 1 in school (CofE primary), 1 in kindergarten. The kindergarten is a Steiner group one not connected with a steiner school. It is wonderful - I think. After reading this thread I am obviously concerned. She is there because we were so unhappy about the local group so switched to one in a nearby town away from our village. The original plan was to keep her there and move when 5 to the same primary as our eldest child. With recent problems at this primary we were considering moving them both to a private Steiner school - as we have been so delighted with the kindergarten and on face value totally love many of the concepts behind Steiner education.
We see it as natural approach to education, steeped in a strong sense of respect and belonging for your own family, ethical view points and the environment is at the heart of every task etc etc. The arts are treasured and valued, each child taught to think and act as an individual with responsibility and a place within the world. This thread has not quite popped my little dream bubble but it has made me question it.
Many of the posts seem so angry and so extreme, Frankly I am shocked by some of the suggestions and personal statements at what has happened to you and some of your children. Not that I don?t believe you all, just amazed that I have not heard of any of this before! Here I was thinking about stretching our budget to give our children this idyllic and gently way of life and now I am worried we might be duping them into some organised equivalent of devil worship!
So.. please, anyone out there with experience, please help me see a balanced viewpoint in all this. Are these awful incidents isolated in a few extreme schools (if so, which ones should be avoided) and there are great middle ground ones? or are there any people out there who are not evangelists/personally involved in the schools as teachers/governors etc who have had positive experiences? Is it really so black and white or is it dangerously grey?
I do not know what/who to believe in all this and am starting to think we should put up with the CofE "voodoo magic" (DH is very anti church schools as he is atheist) and tarmac playgrounds as a safer bet than beautiful wooded playareas, small class sizes etc of the indoctrinating Steiner schools?

Sorry for my rambling. I have read all of this thread and I am no wiser. Just wondering if there is a middle ground or better perspective in all this. I am even concerned about any potential issues in the kindergarten that I am missing? It seems so sweet and lovely - gnomes on the windowsills, little natural wooden toys to play with etc etc - how worried should I be?
HELP!

Margaret, thankyou for an excellent post.
I think the points you make so well about depriving the children of a good education are particularly valid, because, after all, that's what we would expect children to have; and by a "good education" I certainly don't mean lots of A grade exam results, but an envioronment where children can question, explore, and discover; which in Steiner schools, although the pretence is there, they are not allowed to question, or discover anything apart from the "truths" Steiner deemed.
Also, your point about finding out for yourself meaning becoming a clairvoyant is so true in Steiner speak too! Just as "freedom" in Steiner speak actually means "spiritual activity".
So the quotes about "freedom" are really quotes about 2spiritual activity"

Sprocket we too are atheists. We asked the school at the very start about the pictures of Madonnas, the morning "verse" / prayer, and if they were religious. They replied with a strong no. But of course they're religious. Anthroposophy is a religion, not a science. tjey tell the children that guardian angels are watching them. When you attend a "festival" like Michelmas, or the advent spiral, you are attending a religious ritual/ceremony.
Michelmas is highly important, St Michael the archangel, is thought to be the spirit of the age, it's not just some vague, joyful festival, which is the impression they want uninitiated parents to think.

""in 1879, in November, a momentous event took place, a battle of the Powers of Darkness against the Powers of Light, ending in the image of Michael overcoming the Dragon" Rudolf Steiner.

Anthroposophists consider Michael to be the administrator of cosmic intelligence, who 'dwells on the Sun'.Steiner Waldorf schools celebrate the Michaelmas Festival (the festival of 'strong will') during the Autumnal Equinox (September 29).

The advent spiral is a phenomonally important festival too.

Bagelbird -- first off, I'm not an experienced Steinerist, and only lurk on these threads very occasionally.

We have a Steiner school quite near to where we used to live, and I did look into it at one point, as I'd always seen it as pretty benign in a tree-huggy way. In the end I didn't go further with it, because I had the vague sensation that it was a bit cliquey and probably wasn't really my thang.

I only changed my view on Steiner more recently when I did an exchange between my dd1 and a German friend's dd (both then aged 8). My dd had been to stay with the German family without incident, they'd raved about how lovely she was, blahblah. When the Steiner kid came to us, I was struck by how completely incapable she was of entertaining herself -- didn't know how to read, at an age where my dd1 was a complete bookworm, and had read huge quantities of children's fiction already. She wasn't allowed to listen to storytapes or watch TV and videos, and I got the distinct impression that she was really lacking mental fuel and was actually very bored in quite a destructive way.

The week reached a low point with the only punch-up that has ever taken place in my house (and my kids were at pretty rough inner-city primary schools) where my dd and this other child had a minor altercation over a toy, which ended in the Steiner child thumping dd1 full in the face, breaking her glasses and giving her a black eye and a nosebleed.

Sure, the whole experience is a one-off, and might not be representative. But I did have genuine feelings of concern for this child who seemed to be to be bored, frustrated and terribly afraid of doing something 'wrong' such as watching videos, using felt-tips or drinking fizzy drink etc. And the much-valunted creativity seemed to consist of
doing endless identical rainbow pictures with my toddler's wax crayons, and cutting the corners off the paper.

It was just all very odd, and slightly disturbing, and made me feel very much less benignly towards Steiner education. I now wouldn't go near it with a ten-foot pole.

Frogs- that's a fab post. You are so right. I used to think the boredom and frustration of the kids at the school was a main trigger for the appalling bullying which goes on in Steiner schools, ( and is ignored, as a "past life issue" in which intervention would interrupt the karmic path)

When we first were at the school, the other parents were all over us; when the first kids came back to play, i was given a lecture, no story tapes, no recorde music, no tv obviously. My youngest ran into the room while I was making tea and listening to the news quiz or something "MUM! MUM! R isn't allowed to hear the radio"!!!

The creativity thing is a good example of where peope are misled by Steiner, because it couldn't be less creative; those endless wet on wet rainbows - and the curved edges of paper! HA! Both because there are no lines in the spirit world of course"!

"Isenhart, interesting that you don't agree that telling the truth about the belief system which supports the curriculum would be honest and truthful."

Of course I didn't say that and I'm sad that you think these sorts of things about your fellow mothers.

"I'm glad you're happy that many families are kept in the dark;"

Really? If true, this would seem quite perverse to me.

"it goes along with the anthroposophists idea that all children should be allowed to have this spiritual -indoctrination- education foistered on them."

Again, odd to me that this should make you gladwhen someone's thinking runs along these lines. I gathered you were against the indoctrination of youth into a spiritual education. If so, it seems to me that this would actually make you unhappy or perhaps even angry.

I

Isenhart, it was an ironic statement. I am appalled that families are lied to by Steiner schools, for the sake of indoctrinating children.
You're right though, I didn't word it very well and I apologise.
The implication from your posts was that you either think it's ok for the schools not to tell parents about anthroposophy , straight and clear at the onset and in their promotional material, or that you think this is happening already- which I can catatgoriclly say that it isn't. Am I wrong about your stance? if so, what is your view on this, because that was the impression I had, but perhaps I'm wrong, so please put me right.

Bagelbird - I understand totally why you are drawn to Steiner. Most of us who have had children in Steiner schools felt the same way, initially. The appeal is so powerful partly because of the inadequacies of many other early years/primary school provision.

If you read my posts about my younger son's class one experience (and hence MY experience - it was a nightmare), you will understand how the bubble well and truly burst for me.

I saw many Class One groups form over the years. Some worked quite well and the teacher and group got on OK, others were extremely problematic and I really felt the children were getting a very poor education.

"Isenhart, it was an ironic statement."

Oh!

"I am appalled that families are lied to by Steiner schools, for the sake of indoctrinating children."

It sounds to me like you see Steiner Schools mission as being prostelyzing versus educating.

"You're right though, I didn't word it very well and I apologise."

I accept your apology.

"The implication from your posts was that you either think it's ok for the schools not to tell parents about anthroposophy , straight and clear at the onset and in their promotional material,"

No, I certainly knew what the philosophical underpinnings were of each and every one of my options for the primary grades because I researched all of them quite thoroughly. I don't have the expectation that other parents will have the amount of information that I did when I made my decision because my field, at that time, was early childhood education.

I think that the MH statement that you provided was a good thing, a positive step toward the disclosure that you may seek. I also noticed that much of MH's website is replicated in other web site's (as I noticed HH's is duplicated as well)-so it seems to me that if this is language that new parents find helpful that other WS's would quite likely be willing to adopt it.

"or that you think this is happening already- which I can catatgoriclly say that it isn't."

I actually didn't mean that either but yes, to some extent it is happening already and no-you can't say categorically that it isn't.

"Am I wrong about your stance? if so, what is your view on this, because that was the impression I had, but perhaps I'm wrong, so please put me right."

This was your question:

"No-one expects a thesis on anthroposophy, but the basic tenets of reincarnation, spirit worlds, etc etc would be a start.And would , of course, be honest, truthful and a more complete picture than the one they are trained to give, wouldn't you say?"

I said that, no, I wouldn't say that for several reasons. For starters, no I don't think that would be a start-I think a definition of anthroposophy would be a start.

I cannot say whether my children's school was proselytizing, but the level of education they received their was shockingly inadequate given their age and ability.

I am so glad they are out and have a chance to fulfill their potential.

I am one of the world's least pushy mums, BTW, but I feel very guilty that I did not realize how little they were learning.

"I am one of the world's least pushy mums, BTW, but I feel very guilty that I did not realize how little they were learning."

Janni,

Since you have mentioned this now twice I did go back through the thread and I read your story. I saw a lot of positives and reasons why you chose the school in the first place (child miserable in state primary) and reasons why you may have stayed (community, teacher, happy child) At one point you said:

"I challenge ANYONE to tell me we made the wrong decision to remove him from that environment."

So sounds to me like you are confident in your decision and I would guess then that you didn't have enough clarity to make the decision earlier.

I felt inadequate when I was a working mother with children in pre-school and K. and then for years after I quit working I felt guilty that I wasn't "there for them" in those early years. I got over it by being a full-time mom to three adolescent children now for several years-that pretty much squares that guilt-trip away as far as I can tell.

I don't know that you'll have the opportunity to make up to your children what you believe that they have missed out on but I believe that you will.

Because, I do think there are periods of time when children are really receptive to learning certain lessons and certain skills but I don't think they are windows of opportunity that close so much as waves that come and come again and come again.

I guess that could mean you are in a trough now.

The Michael Hall statement is good in one way- that they say anthroposophy underpins so much, and is so wide reaching within the Steiner community. What is interesting is that they don't actually say what anthroposophic belief entails, that it takes a religious stance, that the beliefs in reincarnation, clairvoyant ability, spirit worlds etc are it's main tenets. It would be simple to say this, but they don't- and the reason is that it would put so many people off; so they stick to the natural creative stuff. They even say that parents "might" notice this, and only after they have been there a while. Why not put parents straight before then? I think they dig themselves a hole. Theyv still don't say what anthroposophy entails.
Most schools don't even mention it in the promotional material. And if they do, the nearest they get to any explanation as to what it is about is some bland statement like
"Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge, to guide the spiritual in the human being to the spiritual in the universe" which really says so very little, and certainly doesn't help when it comes to how it is used in the classroom.

Isenhart you said
"It sounds to me like you see Steiner Schools mission as being prostelyzing versus educating."
If by proselytizing you mean recruit to the Steiner institution, in order to create a spiritually superior group, yes , I do believe that is a mission of anthroposophists. It's all over his work. That's one of the main reasons he believed in education.
Here are Steiner's words on the subject
""The aim of the Sixth epoch of humanity will be to popularise occult truth in the widest circles; that is the mission of that epoch"
"So a certain group of people must join together in order to prepare the future. .... The point will be for people over the whole earth to find each other spiritually, in order to fashion the future in, a positive way."

"There is no other means of bringing about a universal human brotherhood than the spreading of occult knowledge through the world. One may talk forever of Love and the Brotherhood of Man, one may found thousands of Unions; they will not lead to the desired goal, however well intentioned they may be. The point is to use the right means, to know how to found this bond of brotherhood. Only those whose lives are grounded in universal occult truth, valid for all men, find themselves together in the one truth. "
"So you see, the Spiritual Movement has a quite definite goal, namely, to mould future humanity in advance.
so have we now the task of working towards the great moment in the Sixth Age, when humanity will undertake a great spiritual ascent.
We must endeavour to come out of materialism again, and societies with a spiritual aim must undertake to guide humanity, not from motives of arrogance and pride, but as a task and duty."

I think Steiner's writings are pretty clear on this point. Gather together a group of spiritually advanced humans; he talks about missions, aims, tasks, goals, and spreading occult truth, i.e.anthroposophy.
Steiner schools are anthroposophy schools. The education they offer is to guide children towards so called concealed spiritual truths - anthroposophic beliefs.

Thank you Frogs, northernrefugee and janni for answering my post. There is a huge amount to take in and I think I might print off this thread and the previous one that is linked at the start and read it through slowly and carefully again when kids are asleep.
Thanks for the links - I will look at those very carefully.

Isenhart - I appreciate you taking the time to read and understand my 'story'. I sincerely do not feel I am in a trough now, though. I feel hopeful and free!

I've just returned from lecturing at a state secondary school, one of the very best in its region. The teachers are saddened by the increasing pressure that is eliminating all the creative programs due to the recent retirement of the principal who had protected these. They have seen an enormous change in the social climate amongst the pupils over the last 10 years; more isolation individually as well as more tendency to form hard and fast groups that do not communicate with one another. They are desperately worried that all that was of value there is being destroyed by the current educational climate.

Whether or not you choose Steiner education to provide your pupils with creative richness and social abilities, which it generally does well, I appeal to all to mobilize to bring these qualities (back?) into state education. All children deserve these.

BTW, I have to say that I wouldn't mind if my children, who attend Steiner schools, would end up as world leaders spreading the values they are learning there, which I think are sound ones. In fact, I would be rather proud if they achieve this! But their schools are exceptionally accepting of any career path (joiner, glass blower, nurse); there is certainly no emphasis on world leadership roles.

"BTW, I have to say that I wouldn't mind if my children, who attend Steiner schools, would end up as world leaders spreading the values they are learning there, which I think are sound ones."

Dear Raconteur,

Really? I can honestly say that I have consistently steered my eldest away from the world leadership racket. I personally think it's a really tough gig.

"In fact, I would be rather proud if they achieve this! But their schools are exceptionally accepting of any career path (joiner, glass blower, nurse); there is certainly no emphasis on world leadership roles."

While I understand your point, your post does semm to beg the question if you'd be equally proud of your joiner, glass blowing, nurse children as your world leader.

"Whether or not you choose Steiner education to provide your pupils with creative richness and social abilities, which it generally does well, I appeal to all to mobilize to bring these qualities (back?) into state education. All children deserve these."

Anyway, don't you think that's what people who don't choose Steiner education are doing already? Obviously, people who move from the Steiner/Waldorf system into another system have already mobilized to bring these qualities into state education and, in most cases, they've made sacrifices to do so.

Hi Raconteur, you are a Steiner teacher aren't you? Thanks for joining in again, it's always good to have the views of someone in the system.
Were you lecturing about Steiner education? Did you talk about the anthroposophic core of the curriculum to the teachers at the state schools?

As to your children "spreading the values" of what they have learned at Steiner school, do you mean the "occult truth" Steiner is talking about? The "spiritual aim"?
Steiner believed these people would be the ones who climb the spiritual ladder of reincarnation, and who will lead those who aren't spiritually evolved. A spiritually advanced hierarchy. I'm sure many wouldn't be happy to be lead by them...

I entirely agree with your points about the lack of creativity and social awareness in state education. Thnis was one of the main reasons we switched to Steiner education. But of course we were lied to about the full nature of the education. I remember you saying in another thread that you found the "education" of parents about anthroposophy a tricky one.

I do not believe Steiner education fills the gap we felt state education was lacking. Copying a techer does not equal "creative richness". Steiner schools provide a level of teaching craft quite well, and the gardening aspect is good, thouigh many primary schools have gardening as part of their day now too.
Steiner education isn't creative, doesn't encourage enquiring minds to flourish, and the children there must be some of the least socially adjusted I've ever come across. There is a reputation for bullying too ( not dealt with)
These are myths which the Steiner system propagates- creativity, and social abilities which simply aren't seen. I would interpret the so called confidence is a false sense of superioty, of being better spiritually than others.

No, state education isn't perfect by any means; but entirely preferable to anthropsophy schools.

There are many teachers in the state system who feel as disillusioned with the lack of creativity. The primary school my younger two go two have had a poetry workshop, three art workshops, and made a film, working on location with three other schools. They have done animation classes, band classes, and sculpture; they have had French and German classes; they have planted a garden; they have planted a small wood of trees, working with local conservationists; they do have, I would say, an exceptional head, who in his own words says "sats are bollocks" (!) but have done all these creativly enriching activities in less than a year. At the Steiner school , they didn't do anything like this, let alone bring in working artists, writers and poets. The schools do the best they can within the restrictions of the curriculum, and if Steiner schools were put under the microscope as state schools constantly are, there would be a few eyes opened.

Isenhart, those like us who have moved from the Steiner system, have made few sacrifices by leaving, just heaved a huge sigh of relief, and seen our children blossom, smile, create, live.

"Isenhart, those like us who have moved from the Steiner system, have made few sacrifices by leaving, just heaved a huge sigh of relief, and seen our children blossom, smile, create, live."

So sorry northernrefugee39, I thought you sacrificed your child's most precious and formative years.

Isenhart, you may think that by not sending your kids to Steiner school that you are sacrificing them, I think the opposite!
I think to put your kid in a system which promotes a cult like pseudo religion is a big sacrifice. One which many children never recover from.
But if you meant that by not removing them for 2/3 years, and trying to work around the anthropsophy, and trying not to disrupt their childhood by thrusting them into a new envioronment, agonising over what to do because we had been lied to, yup, we did sacrifice them. And yes, the guilt is massive; but subsiding day by day as we see our happy, creative, well adjusted children, return to their natural state, rather than the subdued, bullied, bored dazed children they were with at Steiner school.