STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

Also sprocketgirl-MH should be able to provide a list of College acceptances and whatever is comparable to SAT and ACT test averages for the students in the MH Upper Grades. These are also things that I requested and received prior to my first child's enrollment in the first grade.

I think the advent of the internet is interesting in terms of whether or not parents continue to invest in Steiner, when able to avail themselves of all the facts.

When we sent our eldest, six years ago, we had no access to any of the sort of info. available here. I specifically asked his kindergarten teacher whether he would be academically disadvantaged in the long term by having an extra year in kindergarten and she assured me 'no'.

Now that he si nearly twelve, I can see that t
that is categorically NOT the case, however.

With your first child you can be far more trusting of those who seem to know what they are doing...

"I think the advent of the internet is interesting in terms of whether or not parents continue to invest in Steiner, when able to avail themselves of all the facts."

In my experience, Janni, the parents who actually consider their child's education an investment, and I know of many, have researched their options extensively including reading schools' past annual reports and prior year's tax filings (both of which are often available on the internet.)

For many years now we have had families that have relocated from across the country in order for their children to attend this particular school and one of the major sources of information for them has been the internet.

Michael Hall: there is not a lot I can say without violating confidences told in a private place. I can say that it is an anthroposophically very intense place. I wouldn't even go near the place, personally.

Hello again sprocketgirl,

I looked briefly at the web site for Michael Hall. One of the highlights in the section I read on Steiner Education seemed to be on the social aspects of the education and the benefit of having a class of children together for twelve years. I was surprised that the continuity of children in the class was implied rather than the continuity of teachers and staff.

The school should have statistics available on their attrition rates for both students and faculty/staff and it should be an easy matter to compare these to other schools you may be considering.

This is not something I ever looked into before enrolling my first child, however I later became quite familiar with both local and national averages and how our school differed, and why, in any given year.

Isenhart7, if you had read Janni's post, you'd have seen she mentioned the fact that when she enrolled her child, she had no access to this sort of information. The same goes for us; I had hardly any access to the internet 5/6 years ago when we were investigating Steiner education. Strange to think of now. So, we asked the school to give us recommended reading about the education; after all, it is a major commitment; the school literature does not mention anthroposophy, soul, reincarnation, spirit worlds or anything relating to that.The books they recommended didn't either.
Since anthroposophy is the mainstay of the education, and absolutely central to the curriculum, I think this is dishonest in the extreme.
As Pete says, at least Michael Hall mention it, and say that the parents "may" notice it when they,ve been there fro a while. The emphasis very much on the fact that they won't be told upfront about it, only notice when they've been there a while! They also admit anthroposophy is "in the curriculum, the approach to each child, the teachers? training, the organisational form of the school, the approach to food, clothing, play and even medical treatment." and how strange it is.

Isenhart, have you been on other threads on mumsnet? You should try it, there are some interesting discussions going on.
On a forum in the US, I was blocked from the Waldorf threads, because I didn't post enough in other threads!
Bollocks!
Anyway, I posted in the art, literature and gardening threads, quite often, but that wasn't enough for the police there.
Aha, you only come here because the other forum is so boring

Isenhart you said
" I was surprised that the continuity of children in the class was implied rather than the continuity of teachers and staff."

I was talking to the parent of a child at my dd's (new) school on Saturday. I knew her daughter had been to a Steiner school before attending this one too, but what I hadn't known until last week, was that she was a trained Steiner teacher. She did buy into all the spiritual anthroposophical stuff, and was happy that her two children ahd been Steiner educated until they were 11. But one of the things which she found very hard to take, was the continual emphasis on the class as a whole as opposed the the individual. Each child was not valued individually. This was something I remember too, and wonder if anyone else found that? The children were never praised for doing something kind, thoughtful, well, working hard. Never.
One of the things one would hope from a school sold as Steiner is, would be that your child's individualality, and things particular to them would be nurtured. But in actual fact it is the opposite.
The other thing she said was, that in the first weeks of her son being ther, his teacher rang and said "We need to talk about helping D to change his left-handedness" As a Steiner trained teaher she disagreed with this ,( when it came to her own son).

Sprocket, Diana knows alot about Steiner education, she is well worth listening to

Sprocketgirl - I second what Northern says about Diana. She is both a former Steiner parent, a former kindergarten helper and someone who has done an extensive amount of research into Steiner since leaving. I have been really impressed by her posts and would urge you to have a good look at them.

"Isenhart7, if you had read Janni's post, you'd have seen she mentioned the fact that when she enrolled her child, she had no access to this sort of information."

Obviously, I did read Janni's post because I responded to it. My point is that parents, in my experience, have become much more sophisticated about school choice.

As a result, my children's school proviodes much more information than they used to. The school's Strategic Plan and Parent Handbook are both available on their web site, for example.

Certainly, one should be able to form a more complete picture of a prospective school environment now, with virtual reality, and Janni's point was, I thought, that it will be interesting to see what impact the internet will have on Steiner school enrollment.

I hope and expect that the internet is and will be a great tool for families to find the right fit for their children.

"I was surprised that the continuity of children in the class was implied rather than the continuity of teachers and staff."

The reason why I was surprised is that my own school's attrition rate consistently runs several points higher than the public or state schools. On the other hand, the state schools double and triple track whereas Waldorf Schools in the U.S. are typically single-track, i.e. one class per grade, so perhaps that could account for this emphasis.

"Isenhart, have you been on other threads on mumsnet? You should try it, there are some interesting discussions going on."

No. Thanks for the advice.

The school prospectus for the school our kids went to was updated in 2007. It makes no mention of anthroposophy, no mention of reincarnation, spirit worlds, souls, etheric cosmic or asral forces. you would imagine, from treading the glossy pretty stuff, with pictures of little blond children making bread and playin the cello, thatvit was a natural child centred creative envioronment for learning, not an induction to a cult like pseudo religion.
Itis misleading in the extreme; it is deceiptful.
The only way the internet can be useful finding out the real truth about Steiner education is on forums like these, which the anthroposophists do their utmost to gag.

Highland Hall's website also makes no mention that I can find about Anthroposophy, reincarnation, etc. It mentions Steiner in the margin and basically says he was way ahead of his time.

BTW, at Michael Hall, they have an opening for a class teacher. One of the job REQUIREMENTS is Interest in and knowledge of Anthroposophy and the footnote says: This includes continuous work on the teacher?s own moral/spiritual development

"Highland Hall's website also makes no mention that I can find about Anthroposophy, reincarnation, etc. It mentions Steiner in the margin and basically says he was way ahead of his time."

You know what they say, Pete, one person's margin is another person's text:

"The Highland Hall community invites you to explore Waldorf education from early childhood through high school. Waldorf education is based on the research into child development conducted by Austrian educator and philosopher Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925)."

Also, notice they wave the requirements of:

• State Teaching qualification.

• A Degree and Post Graduate Certificate of Education.

in lieu of... you guessed it:

• Proven successful teaching experience in another Steiner school

"The only way the internet can be useful finding out the real truth about Steiner education is on forums like these, which the anthroposophists do their utmost to gag."

And the real truth is, as I've heard it expressed here, is that anthroposophy underlies the curriculum in a Steiner/Waldorf school. In addition, a Waldorf education should be viewed as a long-term commitment in part due to the difficulty a child most likely will face in transitioning to another system.

I have seen these truths in other places on the internet and even in school websites and literature.

Pete- Steiner way ahead of his time - I love it!
Isenhart, I'd be really interested to see links to the school literature and websites about anthroposophy, and difficulty in transfering to other education systems. I've certainly never seen them.
Anthroposophy micht be mentioned as in the Michael Hall prospectus, but the mention rarely goes as far as an explanation.
And if explanations are asked for, it is met with false interpretation, shock or exasperation, as on the US forum. Often, the schools or anthroposophists will say- "how on earth can anthroposophy be exlained in a short paragraph?"
or "it's far too difficult to try and unravel the complex ideas involved" and so- end of story.
No-one expects a thesis on anthroposophy, but the basic tenets of reincarnation, spirit worlds, etc etc would be a start. And would , of course, be honest, truthful and a more complete picture than the one they are trained to give, wouldn't you say?

"No-one expects a thesis on anthroposophy, but the basic tenets of reincarnation, spirit worlds, etc etc would be a start.And would , of course, be honest, truthful and a more complete picture than the one they are trained to give, wouldn't you say?"

No, I wouldn't say that.

"It mentions Steiner in the margin and basically says he was way ahead of his time."

Yet to those of us who criticize Steiner's racist and antisemitic statements, Anthroposophists reply, "He was a man of his time."

My kids are 2 and 3 so really right at the beginning of this "journey". My dh is still really keen for them to go to MH, he's a teacher himself and (like me) is really into the whole natural parenting thing. He's an atheist and thinks that believing in gnomes is no more ridiculous than believing that a man walked on water. He knows a lot of older Steiner kids who don't believe the anthroposophy but still love the school. It does worry me that they don't need a teaching qualification to teach there but actually that is the same as most private schools.

Hello again, Sprocketgirl.

Steiner education is not about natural parenting, although most of us thought it was when we first got involved in it. The problem is not that Anthroposophists believe crazy stuff; the problem is that the crazy stuff influences the academic curriculum in ways not apparent in PR materials and conversations with the teachers.

I went to a Church of England school. We had heavy doses of religion on a daily basis, including scripture classes a couple of times a week. The religion, however, never entered into academic classes such as biology, physics and history. We learned the story of Adam and Eve in scripture classes. We learned about evolution in science classes.

In Steiner schools, Steiner's supernatural and pseudo science beliefs are incorporated into the academic curriculum. From what I and other parents have observed, children are taught to distrust modern science and technology in favor of belief in an unreal world as imagined (or, in many cases, plagiarized from other spiritual belief systems) by Steiner.

When questioned about nonsensical Steiner teachings, Anthroposophists usually answer "Steiner is sometimes difficult" (insinuating that you have to study lots and lots of Steiner writings to understand what he means) or that Steiner himself said not to take his word for anything but find out for yourself (following his directions for finding out, of course, which involves becoming clairvoyant!). In spite of this, as far as I know, no Steiner skeptic has ever succeeded in getting an Anthroposophist to acknowledge the falsity of any specific Steiner claim.

Would your husband want your children to be taught the following in a science class?

"Now science believes that the heart is a kind of pump; that is a grotesquely fantastic idea. Occultism has never made such a fantastic statement as has modern materialism. It is the feelings of the soul
which give rise to the movement of the blood; the soul drives the blood, and the heart moves because it is driven by the blood. Thus the truth is exactly the opposite of what materialistic science states." (149-150
Rudolf Steiner, Theosophy of the Rosicrucian, Rudolf Steiner Press London, reprint 1981, lecture from 1907)

And would your husband want your children to be taught science by a teacher who believes such rubbish?

And how about this for geography:

?[A]n island like Great Britain swims in the sea and is held fast by the forces of the stars. In actuality, such islands do not sit directly upon a foundation; they swim and are held fast from outside.? (Faculty Meetings with Rudolf Steiner, p. 607.)

And this for astronomy:

?[I]t is not that the planets move around the Sun, but these three, Mercury, Venus, and the Earth, follow the Sun, and these three, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, precede it.? (Faculty Meetings with Rudolf Steiner., pp. 30-31.)

Steiner's teachings are replete with rubbish like this. It's not that difficult for a moderately intelligent adult to recognize the rubbish for what it is. Unfortunately, that is not the case for children. They sit in classrooms, trusting that what their teachers are saying is true and based on reality, not on the fantasies of some long dead occultist.

I strongly suggest your husband do masses of Internet research on Steiner and Anthroposophy before he commits your children to an education that I believe will deprive them academically and socially in many, many ways.

Best,
Margaret

Well, if he's a teacher, he may be able to supplement the shortcomings in their education. I suspect, however, once he gets a load of what they're teaching, he will very likely have second thoughts about his decision (playing the odds here). What Isenhart7 said "Waldorf education should be viewed as a long-term commitment in part due to the difficulty a child most likely will face in transitioning to another system." is very true. Please be sure it's a very good fit for you before getting in long-term. Your kids are still young, so you wouldn't be making an irreversible mistake at this point, but keep your eyes open.

BTW, I noticed Michael Hall talks about "their" pupil Julianna Margulies. I don't know how long she was there, but she and her sister were army brats and were relocated a lot as children (I know this because I've talked with her sister) - so Michael Hall was actually one of several Waldorf schools the Margulies sisters attended.

One of the things they found comforting, growing up and moving from army station to army station, was the fact that they could attend a Waldorf school anywhere in the world and feel right at home (that's how similar Waldorf schools are). The transition from one Waldorf school to another was easy for them. This, also, broke up the mind-numbing monotony of their education (unlike kids who stay in the same school with the same classmates and same teacher for 8 years). So her Waldorf education was very different from a typical one. That's explains her perspective "One of the greatest gifts of Waldorf education... making you feel comfortable in the world" - because that's what Waldorf did for her. And "and learning that being an individual is a wonderful thing." - because she had a different Waldorf experience, she did, indeed, get a feeling of individuality that other Waldorf students... again, stuck in the same group for years... just don't come away with.