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STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

1001 replies

zzooey · 05/04/2008 19:37

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

OP posts:
zzooey · 17/05/2008 17:12

Waldorf seems to have an unfortunately big problem with isolated incidents

Great post Margaret. I think that's how many ex-waldorf people feel about it. Through the years, my parenst continued to think it was just an education, as good as any other kind of education, but the counter-evidence just kept piling up until it was impossible to ignore. On top of it, I was very unhappy, but their belief that I would be just as unhappy in any other schoolbecause of the mistaken idea there's nothing that special about waldorf that separates it from the other schoolswas really slowing down the process of realizing that waldorf really wasn't our cup of tea.

OP posts:
sprocketgirl · 18/05/2008 16:39

Thank you for all your replies, wow. I'm in UK by the way. The way you all talk about it does make it sound like a cult.

I've been told by so many people that reception year in a state school is a waste of time plus I'm not keen on my summer baby going to school/wearing uniform/etc when he's only just 4. This is where the idea of trying something different came from.

Also I have a good friend who teaches in the upper years of a Steiner school and assures me that there is nothing to worry about. (She is not Steiner trained and teaches an A-level subject).

sprocketgirl · 18/05/2008 17:24

Do you think it is possible to work at a Steiner school and not know about the weird stuff going on?

easeonline · 18/05/2008 18:25

Yes sprocketgirl, it is entirely possible I think.
I have no diredt experience of Steiner ed, but I did work five years live-in, then a further two years live out at an Anthro Special Needs centre. There were things to cause some unrest, and very often a vague feeling that questions asked were met by answers designed to deflect rather than explain.
I guess I did come to get to know some of the esoteric stuff, but quite frankly, I learned more about all the underlying stuff in a year after leaving than in all my time of involvement.
Davy

zzooey · 18/05/2008 18:32

No, I don't think it's possible. The teachers study Steiner and they recite prayers (or verses, as they prefer to call them). I would say it's unlikely someone is unaware of all of that. Most of them just don't see it as abnormal in any way, so why would they think it's something to worry about? It's the way things are and the way they think it's supposed to be. So, in a way, yeah, they are unaware of what other people think is weird.

I had a teacher who had a normal teacher training and who had worked in a public school prior to going into the waldorf thing. That didn't help--or perhaps it did, after all, other classes might have had even more trouble.

Anyway, I would be were distrustful of anyone from waldorf saying there's nothing to worry about, but that's just me, having had bad experiences. Your friend may be right, or wrong, or just unaware. I can't say, of course

(I'm from a country where nobody wears school uniforms and nobody starts school at 4, so...well... it's hard to say. I started waldorf kindergarten at 3,5, and for me, personally, it would've been better to have gone to a real school--even though I think 3,5 is too young, nothing is worse than waldorf...)

OP posts:
zzooey · 18/05/2008 18:34

Davy:
it is entirely possible I think

Me:
I don't think it's possible.

Now Sune can stop worrying we're a well-organized army out to destroy waldorf with our all arguments plagiarized from the mother source in San francisco.

OP posts:
zzooey · 18/05/2008 18:36

And I wrote that message when Davy posted his--so it's not just me trying to fool Sune by putting up this facade of disunity within the ranks of critics.

OP posts:
Janni · 18/05/2008 19:36

I worked as an untrained playgroup assistant for six months. I son became painfully aware of the appalling management within the school and the amount of advocating I had to do for the parents of our playgroup children, but I did not know about all the stuff I've since learned on these threads. There was a lot I didn't understand but I trusted that the playgroup was run in a certain way for good pedagogical reasons, rather than because of weird, cultish beliefs.

sprocketgirl · 18/05/2008 22:16

I think the playgroups are probably a bit different because they are more open to anyone. I took my eldest to one where we used to live and there was absolutely nothing said about the anthro-whatsit stuff.I guess that means you can't get much of an idea of the rest of the school by going to the playgroup.?

sprocketgirl · 18/05/2008 22:23

BTW Janni, what does CAT mean (as in "she can CAT me". Don't know any techno-speak!

northernrefugee39 · 19/05/2008 07:25

I think it's absolutely possible to work as a teacher, and only pick up a small bit of the anthro stuff; in fact I'm certain that one of my daughter's teachers didn't really know that much of the esoteric stuff. I got the feeling she was closely watched and monitored by two "elder" teachers, and desperately anxious to please them.
I reckon the teachers are treated a bit like the parents, they aren't "invited" onto the spiritual path proper until they're deemed ready. After all, there's a real shortage of Steiner teachers isn't there?
The reading list has alot of books about Atlantis and spritual worlds, and the training obviously involves all the spiritual reincarnation stuff, but I suppose they think "you only take what you want" from it ( what we were told )
A couple of my friends are doing the kide training, they don't cover nearly so much.

Janni · 19/05/2008 20:19

sprocketgirl - you are thinking of the parent and toddler group, the playgroup is the pre-kindergarten section (aged about 2.5 - 3.5) where the children are being left for a couple of hours and it is anticipated that they will continue into kindergarten.

CAT is a mumsnet facility whereby you can 'Contact Another User'. You have to pay £5 and sign up for the facility. If I remember rightly, you click on the envelope icon and follow the instructions for CAT.

sprocketgirl · 19/05/2008 21:50

Thanks again for all your answers.

Do you think it's the same at all of the Steiner schools or are some more trustworthy than others? Can we name names or is that not a good idea??

northernrefugee39 · 21/05/2008 08:04

From what I gather, some schools are more upfront about the spritual stuff, but I think that could be because they think the people they're addressing are more receptive.
The interesting thing to note is that hardly any of the school prospectuses or websites talk about anthroposophy, but focus on the learning at the child's pace, the creatie stuff etc, which is exactly what the teachers are trained to do when asked about it by parents. In my view, this confirms the veiled picture they try to give, they have something to hide, because if they call themselves a Steiner school, have no doubt, they will be following Steiner's anthroposophical curriculum.
Some schools are Steiner inspired, those would be the only ones I would trust to not have anthroposophy in the curriculum.
Some schools, (like The Waldorf school of SW London in Streatham/Wandsworth,) don't belong to the Steiner Schools Fellowship, so may be slightly more autonomous.
IME, the schools may vary in how much they tell you, how upfront they are, and they may have staff who aren't full on anthroposophists, but they will ll have been trained in it. (The reading list and teacher training is the indicator!)
If you want to give the name, I wouldn't have thought it's a problem. Have you asked them about anthroposophy in the school? What was their reaction? " We only take what we want" or " Steiner is very difficult"
This site has some questions to put to the school

northernrefugee39 · 21/05/2008 08:04

www.openwaldorf.com

sprocketgirl · 21/05/2008 10:49

It's the Michael Hall school that we're considering (Forest Row)

northernrefugee39 · 21/05/2008 13:44

I know Michael Hall. (I know two teachers who will be starting there in September too.)
It's the oldest school in Britain, and yes, it is based very much on anthroposophical lines.
It's a very beautiful setting for a school- all those acres wonderful grounds and the old buildings mingled with that European Steiner architecture is very appealing. (I thought the parents there were the sort who wanted a private school education, but a bit more arty)

Sprocket- they are all based on Steiner's anthroposophy, whatever they tell you. It's up to you as to whether you take that on board I think. I'm completely against the anthroposphical curriculum, I just don't believe or buy into it; the reincarnation, clairvoyance, spiritual worlds, angels, gnomes, etc, I just don't believe it and for us, it was wrong to have our kids taught in an environment where these beliefs are a given.
The schools line is "We don't teach it to the children", and no, they don't. But in their training, they are taught to "direct" the children towards "concealed levels of truth"- and these truths are spiritual worlds etc. So,for instance, my eldest daughter is very practical- she likes to know how things work, takes stuff apart, find out why things are. At Steiner, she never got a straight answer, often silence, or the question asked back, lots of deflecting methods to steer her away from a solution to for instance why the moon is silver or something.(Steiner's reasons were probably totally bonkers- to do with Ahriman the devil or something, considered to be scientifically correct too) This is meant to encourage awe and wonderment in Steiner's method, but caused frustration and confusion.
But for some kids maybe it works.

This is from Michael Hall's prospectus, which says quite alot I think ( my bold)

"Many different paths lead children and their parents to Michael Hall. From the moment of their arrival the new family will notice the friendly, relaxed approach ? and soon, after more involvement, they may realise that ideals of a far-reaching nature and a complex picture of the human being ? Anthroposophy ? lie at the heart of it all. This is seen in many areas ? in the curriculum, the approach to each child, the teachers? training, the organisational form of the school, the approach to food, clothing, play and even medical treatment.All this is very different ? but why?The ideals underlying Michael Hall were established by Rudolf Steiner at the beginning of this century, yet they are still new, astonishing and invigorating. Though these concepts may seem strange, confusing or even uncomfortable to some, working with them is a challenging task for teachers and parents alike."

northernrefugee39 · 21/05/2008 13:52

The other thing I would seriously research, (and another thing not to take the school's word for it) is find out what the kids who leave go on to do, how many kids stay at the school, or more to the point, how many leave.

How they deal with dyslexia, left handedness for instance( karmic, past life issues).

And realise you will be expected to do alot of helping, fundraising, cleaning gardening etc. (And not for world disasters like Burma, as my daughter's Quaker school does, but for themselves)
For me, I found this terrible, they were completely wrapped up in their own spiritual path , journey Steiner daze, to the detriment of all else.

Good luck Sprocket.
We thought Steiner would be a marvellous alternative to state education, we really thought we'd found a wonderful creative, natural child centred school, but wow, were we wrong....
I truly believe it's a pseudo religion and a cult.

sprocketgirl · 21/05/2008 14:42

Thanks so much for spending the time to answer my questions northern. I'm really glad I joined Mumsnet (I'm such a non-computer person normally so I can't believe I'm having a virtual conversation!). I do have a lot of opportunities to talk to former and past pupils of the school so I can now do that with my eyes open.

sprocketgirl · 21/05/2008 15:00

former and past means the same thing doesn't it!, I meant present and past!

isenhart7 · 21/05/2008 17:07

"I do have a lot of opportunities to talk to former and past pupils of the school so I can now do that with my eyes open."

Dear sprocketgirl,

All three of my children attended a Waldorf school for Kindergarten. When it came time to decide on a first grade for my eldest I called the local University and spoke to the admissions counselor specifically about their experience with Waldorf students.

If you have a College or University nearby that takes kids from MH this could be worth a call.

northernrefugee39 · 21/05/2008 19:20

Sprocket, for a "net novice" you're doing very well I'm not much better though.
I've met a few teachers from Michael Hall- there was one who particularly stood out- I think he was Dutch, and was very charismatic. (This was before we realised the full extent of the anthroposophical web you understand, and we were quite enthusiastic about the whole Steiner thing.) Anyway, as a Steiner teacher, I should imagine this particular man was quite inspiring. Looking back, and knowing what I was only gradually learning then- I would think that the charisma is also quite anthroposophical, spiritual, believing in cosmic and astral forces and the higher worlds. It's something that anthroposophists can give out- a kind of superior confidence, which comes from them *knowing", while the rest of us are stumblimng around in the dark. They will be saved in Steiner's "war of all wars".
But obviously, that confidence and knowingness is quite alluring.

I don't think Michael Hall's academic results are atall impressive to be honest. But then , you don't end your kids to Steiner school for academic results. That goes totally against the grain ( academia is too Ahrimanic, not spiritual enough.) But after however many years of education, I think you would want enough qualifications to be able to do what you want to do. ( My eldest- 13- isn't particularly academic, and is dyslexic, which wasn't picked up at Steiner. She is talented at art, loves making things, and biology! She wants to make wildlife documetaries. I would hate for her drams to be shattered for the sake of a "spiritual education")

There was a woman on another chat board, in the States actually, who said she sent her children to Steiner school because the children there "looked cool"; the same woman also likened living with her children to living with the Bloomsbury Group, because they had discussions and painted. The image obviously was ultra important to her- she must have had the label "Bohemian intellectual" imprinted in her brain! Very shallow reasons I know, but Steiner school's don't have a monopoly on that style of education, which is the impression they love to give. People buy into it , and also for what it isn't.
Most arts and culture people find the "art" extremely prescribed and copied, and the children aren't encouraged to read literature atall until they're about 14- everything they are taught comes from the mouth of their one teacher.

I have to say, that since my eldest daughter has been going to her liberal, progressive, arts/drama orientated secondary school (a Quaker one) she is so much more confident, interested, alive,is given respect and responsibility, has amazing teachers; the drama, art and music are wonderful, they have artists in residence for art, sculpture, english, poetry, they have orchestras, bands, singing, the biology teachers let them have an aray of creatures, the physics teacher is so enthusiatic, he has groups of them watching stars, who have to be picked up at at god knows what hour. Today she came home having been picked to go to masterclasses as gifted in art. It makes the Steiner curriculum a joke in comparison. The children were so bored , even the most anthroposophical of the parents complained. Steiner schools are meant to produce confident children, but somany I know had their confidence totally undermined there.

Oh hi Isenhart, funny how you pop by when someone is interested in Steiner education- just keeping an eye? Watching for new initiates?

northernrefugee39 · 21/05/2008 19:30

Sprocket- I also meant to say- you're welcome! And sorry I ramble on. I really hope you make the right decision for you. And have the time to really sit back and weigh everything up. It's a huge decision choosing a school, but with steiner more so, because you're comitting yourself and your family to a whole way of life for years, and extricating your kids from it and sending them elsewhere is hard but not impossible speaking from experience How old are your kids? Still very small?

PeteK · 21/05/2008 21:49

Sorry to join in late. I think Isenheart gave some excellent advice... See how Michael Hall students stack up in local colleges. I've been keeping an eye on Michael Hall since hearing from a parent there many years ago. Their story could have been mine except for minor details. My kids went to Highland Hall - a 50 year old Waldorf school in Southern California. Michael Hall seems to have the same very serious problems Highland Hall has.

I'm encouraged, however, by the fairly decent job of disclosure (at least for a Waldorf school) they produced in their prospectus. Some schools hit bottom and start to turn around - others just veer off in a new direction that's equally problematic. If Michael Hall is disclosing the true extent to which Anthroposophy permeates Waldorf (and their statement, again, is encouraging), then that's a good start... (I wish Highland Hall would make at least baby steps in that direction).

Northernref has a point about the Waldorf teachers being more open to people who appear more receptive. It may serve you to show a lot of wide-eyed enthusiasm for anything spiritual-looking. They might just let on a little more about what drives the school (and there will be a lot of knowing looks ).

Good luck to you!

isenhart7 · 21/05/2008 22:11

"Oh hi Isenhart, funny how you pop by when someone is interested in Steiner education"

That's what this thread is about.

"just keeping an eye?"

No.

"Watching for new initiates?"

No.

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