STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

Gosh pete, that story is really shocking.
And the most shocking is that they let her continue to teach..!
But it doesn't surprise me, simply because of the stuff going on at the school where ours were, and how any meeting, discussion trying to find out what was going on, was deflected,or sing songed away.

Thebee

"except Zooey, that I've only had some discussions with since some months"

I'd not call that discussion. Monologue preaching, more likely. Remember you said you weren't here to discuss with us? But apparently you're here to preach. And advertise your web sites.

Well. I got a private request from thebee. He e-mailed me and diagnosed me with paranoia, but he also wanted me to tell the story of the butterfly-telephone calls from the dead. I'll get back when I've walked the dog. Promise

Bee, do you call yourself Magnolia? And pretend to have just found mumsnet!

is this the bee? but who cares anyway

Thanks all, no Steiner for my children, then.

Will pass this info on to anyone I know who may be considering it for their child, too.

Are Steiner schools and communities a cult?

"Signs of a Cult

• The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪* Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

• The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel[.]

• The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar?or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

• The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪*The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪*The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, [.]

‪*The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

• Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

• The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

• The most loyal members (the ?true believers?) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group."

Frominternational cultic studies association

Thankyou Katie. I'm glad you are armed with information the steiner schools are good at missing out

"Bee, do you call yourself Magnolia?"

LMAO!!! Hey, Bees are attracted to Magnolias... it just goes to show AGAIN how low TheBee in particular and Anthroposophists in general will sink to in order to promote their cult. And it's not just TheBee doing this sort of thing - his cohorts Deborah, Serena and Linda regularly rediscover their own websites and converse with new mothers as if they have no fanatical biased interest in Waldorf. They pretend to be anonymous editors on Wikipedia, and they pretend to be just plain old mothers and grandmothers on Mothering.com. When Waldorf teacher Harlan Gilbert was shown to have a conflict of interest at Wikipedia (he has also written a book about Waldorf which he is promoting on Wikipedia) - he pretended not to be who he is - despite using his name there. It's incredibly shameful how these people behave.

Now, transpose this to your local Waldorf school where the Waldorf teachers there say "No, I've never heard of racism in Steiner" - or "Anthroposophy is not taught in Waldorf education" - or "the festivals simply represent the rhythms of the year"... and you will realize how widespread (all-inclusive) the intention to deceive the public about Waldorf education REALLY IS.

Pete- that'a a great analogy, the pretence just comes so naturally to them.

yes., linda and deborah gave me the dear old granny line on motheing.
they're involved on a new thread here
what should schools tell prospective parents?
So innocent they are

He called himself Rosie once, so why not Magnolia...

Well, I was going to tell the story that thebee requested earlier. He thinks this story makes me look like the fool, and him the guy looking for evidence and proof and being scientific in general.

Ever since he forst contacted me, he's been obsessed with a story I told about a waldorf teacher who had an encounter with the dead. You see, the dead contacted her through the flapp flapp flappings of butterfly wings. They told her stuff (from the life between death and rebirth, I presume...) She recounted this encounter during school hours. (I also had teachers who met dancing fairies on their way to school in the mornings...) Anyway, to thebee, this only shows I'm a liar (once again), because he wants to know the specifics - who were the dead? were the the dead in the butterflies, or were the butterflies only conveying the message? Did something particular happen to the teacher (thebee suggested the recent death of 'a loved one'!) that 'provoked' this phone call from the dead? And so on.

I don't know, to be honest. I think it's just as wacky to have a teacher who believe butterflies are actual dead people or one who believes dead people speak through the butterflies.

Conversations with the realm beyond don't belong in the classroom, and should not be retold to the children.

If the teacher hallucinates, I think she should keep her hallucinations to herself.

If the butterfly-talk is an outcome of her religious belief (anthroposophy - and this is the likely explanation in this case), then she should've kept the belief and its consequences to herself.

Hi all, blimey I've been away all day and I'm confronted by mathgnomes arghhhhhhh
Maybe that accounts for one of the community where I live dressing her dc all Doris Day, even though she's really a choleric - does the yellow calm the red

"It's an American neurosis' spread to Europe."

You are insane. I come from the same town that you do, and I can inform you that I've been in firm opposition to the whole idea of waldorf and anthroposophy since my time in waldorf.

I went to waldorf between 1981 and 1989. This was well before the internet, and many years before I encountered PLANS and other critics.

As I also told you in an e-mail, I did a very critical introduction to anthroposophy to my high school class somewhere around 92-93. This was years before I used the internet. I didn't even know there were other people criticizing anthroposophy at that time. Then I came across the Swedish criticism which appeared in a Swedish periodical (Folkvett) during the early years of the 1990:ies (and late 80:ies, too, I think).

The criticism put forth there was as fierce and strong as anything produced in America or by that 'hate-gruop' in San Fransisco...

So - you see, criticism has been here a long time, it didn't have to spread from America to Europe. Germany has seen its own criticism, too.

You know very well criticism hasn't spread from evil America to innocent Europe. You just think it's ok to lie, because you think people can't reveal your lies. You think you can lie and make people believe that that horrible Swedish critic wasn't a critic really, but was only influenced by transatlantic hypnosis.

You lie, and your lies show the true face of anthropospohy. I do hope people recognize this.

Pete:

"And we're all blindly following Dan - because he's so karismatic... [...]Hundreds of parents around the world who just happen to have all had bad experiences with Waldorf, just stumbled onto Dan and have become blind followers of his cult. hmm"

Dan is like the new Rudolf Steiner of the 21st century!

Whoops looks like on Mothering.com they have forgotton to tell BethCW steiner waldorf education is a cult and the schools only exist to find the next incarnation of Manes/Manu.........

Some of his lies are facilitated by the language barrier. (Which is why you, Zooey, and other bilingual critics really make him crazy.)

To English-speaking readers whom he presumes cannot speak German or Scandinavian languages, he claims that "all criticism is an American thing." He knows that there is more criticism in German than in English - more by far. It is driving him beserk that there is now close cooperation between English-speaking critics and Norwegian and Swedish critics.

That's right Zzooey the european movement is managing to mess up all on its own
Why do they have the two seperate names or should I say three
waldorf
steiner
anthroposphy
?

He has been on this "You're just following Dan Dugan" thing for MANY years. The first time he told me I was a follower of Dan Dugan, I was so confused, as I barely knew who Dan Dugan was. I was told I was parroting Dan's story when I hadn't read Dan's story yet.

Hey they even get their own topic heading 'waldorf ' on mothering,
With all these threads maybe we can ask mumsnet

zzooey - just out of curiosity, do you blame your parents for choosing Steiner or do you think they were misled? How do they now feel about your anger about your schooling?

I know this is a personal question and feel free to decline to answer, but I'm wondering how my boys will react in years to come when they realised that I screwed up and didn't research their primary years education sufficiently.

"If the butterfly-talk is an outcome of her religious belief (anthroposophy - and this is the likely explanation in this case), then she should've kept the belief and its consequences to herself."

Butterflies are indeed a BIG DEAL in Waldorf... That's why you made so many tissue butterflies as a Waldorf child... (how did I know that without knowing who you are or where you went to school Zzooey? LOL). Butterflies represent metamorphosis - death and reincarnation and all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo Anthroposophists can attach to them. Butterflies helping the dead talk to a Waldorf teacher - ABSOLUTELY explainable through Anthroposophy.

Janni,

I used to blame them, and I used to think they (and in particular my mum... because she was the one taking main responsibility for kids' stuff) were really ignorant. I used to be very angry. I always knew they were angry because I was so far behind academically, but they knew very little about the social situation and the religious/spiritual stuff, thus those things didn't make them angry, back then. Now at least my mum knows a lot more, problem is that I think it hurts her too much to think about it. For example, she was persuaded by the anthros that I wasn't having a bad time in school, so she and they made an arrangement - an anthro picked me up at our subway station, and she brought me, by force, from my parents and to school. They had this done, until I relented and went there "voluntarily" - that is, I gave up. I knew I wasn't going to have a choice, and I was stuck. Back then, I knew I had to be at that school for all 12 years. Only when it was obvious how behind age level (or ordinary schools) it dawned on my parents that we had to leave. Anyway, I don't think it's easy on her to know that, despite what the anthros told her because they lied, I had a hell in school, and that she even paid them to force me to school and had to see the anthro lady drag me (crying and screaming) away. I think it hurts her that she let them do this, and that she let them lie to her.

I was kind of a difficult kid, and when they told her I was alright there, she bought it.

I'm not very angry these days, because I see how it is possible for mums and dads to be misled by these people. I sort of didn't believe that before. "How could they be so stupid"? But I realize these cult followers wouldn't run schools for non-cult kids if it wasn't for their success in deceit, lies and secrecy. How those kinds of movements work, offers some insight into the mechanisms that make the lies go on and on. And that sort of explains why an ordinary mum is decieved, and absolves some of the responsibility. I mean, it's so obvious that the stakes involved - for the movement - are so high that they need to perfect their lies, they need to be really good at the lies. And the ordinary mum is likely just averagely good at detecting such lies (she won't know she ought to look for the deceptions of a cult, moreover!). I've come to understand that normally parents don't expect to be lied to right in their faces by people who claim to be the best thing for children.

Well, now I wrote so much I'd fall asleep if I had to proofread it

Sorry guys, does anyone have any experience of Steiner Nurseries?my thread here

Oh god Zzooey, so sad to hear what happened. No wonder you are angry, but as they say in my neck of the woods anger is energy and we are all putting our energy to good use here.
There are many people reading these threads and for a prospective parent it is so important to read your experince from a childs point of view. Many parents fall into the arms of these places as it gives them a whole new identity and a guide for life.
Many of the parents, myself included, weren't parented very well themselves and are attracted to their new found surrogate family. You don't realise until later the conditions attached.
As my dh rightly kept trying to tell me at the time:
'It's not about you!'

In addition, I think it's all too easy to fall for such an alternative if the child is deemed difficult. Anthroposophists offer a solution. They take care of the problem. Even if it's all lies.

The ordinary nursery or school wouldn't do that. They wouldn't be willing to pretend there isn't a problem. They wouldn't lie and say the kid is happy when it's obvious s/he's not.

Understandably, parents like to hear things are being solved.

On waldorf/steiner nurseries:
I went to a steiner kindergarten from 3 to 6 years of age. I wouldn't do it again

My kindergarten teachers were like the brides of Rudolf Steiner himself. Scary people.

I got detention because I was so bad at sewing wool hair on a sock supposedly parading as a horse.

Lots of gnomes, fairies, weird 'games' and plays.

Children being evil towards each other and teachers ignoring it. Because you get what you deserve.

No sense of responsibility for emotional and physical safety.

The teachers were cold, distant and detached. Perhaps busy talking to the spiritual world.

"Butterflies are indeed a BIG DEAL in Waldorf... That's why you made so many tissue butterflies as a Waldorf child... (how did I know that without knowing who you are or where you went to school Zzooey? LOL). Butterflies represent metamorphosis - death and reincarnation and all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo Anthroposophists can attach to them."

Yes, Steiner specifically suggested using the butterfly as a symbol to teach about immortality of the soul and reincarnation. (I can find the quote if desired; last time I mentioned this, anthros replying got extremely angry with me and insisted I was lying. I'm not lying.)