STEINER WALDORF SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS #2

[zzooey]

The steiner waldorf thread ran to a halt because apparently a 1000 messages are a maximum. Let's continue here!!

Thanks for writing that, Maria33.

As long as the parents have made an informed choice and the children are happy in their Steiner school - I don't see there being any obvious problem. The one thing I would think of is their academic level - in that, perhaps, if they go to a mainstream school at 11 they might have to prepare a bit, catch up, beforehand, so the transfer works smoothly.

I was 12,5 when I went to mainstream school, and I was very much behind academically in all subjects. Still, it doesn't have to be a problem, if the child is still young and not too left behind compared to the agegroup, and one makes preparations for the transfer. Perhaps work through a few ordinary school books etc.

Maria - I understand what you're saying. I moved my eldest from a state primary to Steiner KG when he was 5 as he was very unhappy. KG was a good experience for him and as he could already read fluently I didn't worry too much. He's now moved to a secodary and has joined in the third term. He is coping but is MUCH further behind than he should be, given that he is a very bright boy. Just keep an eye on it - I had assumed my son was learning French and he knew nothing after four years. His maths was also way behind and we've had to help him a lot.

We moved my younger son at the end of year one in Steiner. Again, his KG had been fine, but his class one was extraordinarily bad. I taught him to read and write in a crash course!!

He really appreciates the well-run school he's now in.

Feel free to CAT me if you wish to discuss anything further.

I think there'd have been a message from MNHQ if he'd been banned??

Maybe he finally realized he's actually been driving people away from Waldorf all these years?

Welcome Maria. You said:
"I think that frankness and openness about the Steiner system is to be encouraged and I hope that your stories will eventually go some way to addressing issues around the balance of power between educators, children, parents and anthroposophists in the Steiner system... "

That problem is that it isn't a "system of balances" in Waldorf schools, it's a "system of hierarchies" (no surprise). Steiner trumps everything, hard-core Anthroposophists trump softer Anthroposophists, any Anthroposophist trumps any non-Anthroposophist, Anthroposophist teachers trump non-Anthro Board members (usually the Board is seeded with enough Anthroposophists to control it anyway), Anthroposophist administrators trump non-Anthro Administrators, Anthro parents trump non-Anthro parents, kids of Anthro parents trump kids of non-Anthro parents... and so on.

It's the same hierarchal system with the curriculum, teaching methods, even the actual things that are being taught... Steiner trumps everything in science (but they use Goethe and others to promote Steiner's ideas), then comes Steiner science as interpreted by the particular nutty Anthroposophical "science" teacher at the school, then modern science AS LONG AS it doesn't disagree with Steiner's ideas or the official "interpretation" of Steiner's ideas (for example, Steiner had no opinion on TV viewing in 1925 - somebody downstream decided Ahriman must be hiding in there).

So no, a "balance of power between educators, children, parents and anthroposophists in the Steiner system... " is not intended by ANYONE in the Steiner system... it is indeed INTENDED to be an unbalanced system weighing heavily in favor of the stupid cult-like ideas Steiner proffered in Anthroposophy. Parents looking for a balanced educational system are forced to look elsewhere.

Thanks for your post Maria. I wonder if the anthroposphists will ever form a sect separate from the schools, bio dynamic agriculture and medicine.... the schools would then have to rename themselves. They could provide an education which valued art, music and drama,verred towards a natural, gentler, child centred approach to learning. But, isn't that what the anthros sell anyway?

There are great things going on in schools that aren't Steiner too...the whole point about the Steiner system is it's reasons for most decisions are anthroposophical. The schools reason for being is to awaken anthroposophy in as many human beings as possible without actually mentioning the word anthroposophy.
If they are open about it, no one would go near them, except I would guess a very few extreme types.
They expend an innordinate ammount of energy and effort, on evasive propaganda.

I'm sure the schools are full of well meaning human beings, who went into the Steiner system for the same reason many of us sent our kids there, who have litle or no idea what the anthroposophists truly believe.

And personally, I think the kids who do well at Steiner , do well in spite of rather than because of the education.

I've started a new thread about hereford Steiner school being given government millions here
but will probably get my head bitten off

If the insect doesn't appear on that thread, he's certainly been banned. He's got to go brag about the Swedish waldorf schools which are all publically funded and so great!! And everyone is happy!!

PeteK:
Yes, that's possibly the conclusion I'm reaching. I was drawn to Steiner looking for something more liberal and child centred and in some ways it certainly is more child centred, but liberal it ain't.

All the decisions about "what children need" and "what's good for families" have been made before you even walk through the door, by some amorphous authority and there's no room for discussion. It's a shame, because there are many interesting discussions to be had - Why do they limit themselves to Steiner? Movements can be bigger than their founders - the scouts have moved past Baden Powell and the Labour Party doesn't continually quote Keir Hardie.

Northern Refugee, do you not think that state funding of Steiner schools would go some way to creating greater culture of openess and accountability within the Steiner system which would address many of the issues you and other families have faced? Many people within the Steiner system fear state funding as they think it will lead to a corruption of 'true Steinerness'

I do want to emphasise that we've been pretty happy with many aspects of Steiner education and I feel that it has provided a great educational balance for my kids. The music, drama, outdoors and the broad curriculum have given my children a great desire to learn, but I'm beginning to see that it's not for us long term.

I live in a country where Steiner schools are state funded. They are still really bad schools, and the anthroposophists are compulsive liars who hide their agenda. No openness, no accountability, nothing that would solve the issues critics usually have with waldorf/anthroposophy/steiner.

"Why do they limit themselves to Steiner?"

Because it's the Steiner Cult!

What you describe is Northern and barking paranoia.

I follow the WC-list in between. On the WC-list, Northern told she was pursuing an anti-Waldorf raid here at MN. I checked it out to see what WC-myths she had brought along to this specific forum. When she has told - here at MN - that she has been going on to other forums, inviting others to come along with her, I've checked them out too, to see what she'd be up to there.

Not complicated. I discussed with the WCs for years, to see if there was anything to their criticism. In response, I cooperated with someone else to build the Waldorf Answers site.

The complaints at times by parents, and the many myths it cultivates and spreads since long on the net are just two tools - nothing else - in the long term ideological campaign by the secretary and driving force of the group since the end of the 1980s to bait and get people to support his zealous long term - McCarthyist - missionary campaign to spread sceptic secular humanism.

At first he tried to do this in the Bay Area, but failed to transform the local sceptic chapter. Disappointed, he then, since now 10 years has pursued a spin-off anti-Waldorf campaign, starting by supporting myths that Waldorf schools and teachers teach and practice witchcraft, to spread paranoia and excite media, and then using the media reports to apply for money from a fundamentalist Christian organisation to finance litigation against two public school districts for their support of the use of Waldorf methods at two public schools.

On his anti-Waldorf mailing list, he commented on this:

" "What I say 'in defense of the Waldorfians' is that 'they don't eat babies.' "

"Am I pandering to the prejudices of Christians? Personally, yes I am!"

As much as possible supporting and publishing complaints by some parents, and the smear and paranoid myths cultivated and spread by the group are just tools in the long term, missionary ideological sceptical war pursued by the secretary and driving force of the group, rooted in the - from a European perspective - neurotic pro- or against relation so many Americans have in relation to anything they consider to be "religious", respectively "anti-religious", like Darwinism.

It's an American neurosis' spread to Europe.

As for me, I'm the almost single exception on the net to the basically 100% typical attitude by Waldorf supporters to just let critics write what they want and don't bother. Has any British representative or supporter of the Steiner schools engaged in these discussions? Basically noone. They just do what they think is good, 32 Ofsted reports.

I'm once of the exceptionally few who argue against WC's, because I'm so familiar with their many myths and distortions, and they piss me off, personally.

You can't draw any conclusion about the anthroposophical movement or the Waldorf movement, based on me and what I do, except that I'm exceptionally unusual in that context.

Regards,

The only paranoia I've seen here is from you - you are the one who is convinced that all criticism comes from an organised hate group. You are the one who feels compelled to follow people around the internet to find out what they've been "up to". You are the one who uses provocative language about "hate" and "raids" and "campaigns".

All I have seen from Northern and other parents on here about Steiner schools are comments about the actual experiences which their children had in certain schools, explanations of how anthroposophy underlies the teaching, and suggestions that parents who are considering a Steiner school should endeavour to understand what they are buying into before they start.

The only comments from them which could be classed as paranoia have been about your behaviour and tactics - and I do not think that their perfectly rational distrust of someone who behaves as you do should be classed as that.

"The only paranoia I've seen here is from you - you are the one who is convinced that all criticism comes from an organised hate group."

I'm not. I know who support the group in question and have discussed with them for years in different forums, except Zooey, that I've only had some discussions with since some months, and Northern, that I only know from the WC-list.

I know quite well what the group they support, and where Zooey sits on the board since some time, publish at their site and spread on the net since long. I've read all the myths and know them in detail. If you'd checked my description of them at the AWE site, you'd know them for what they are.

"All I have seen from Northern and other parents on here about Steiner schools are comments about the actual experiences which their children had in certain schools, explanations of how anthroposophy underlies the teaching, and suggestions that parents who are considering a Steiner school should endeavour to understand what they are buying into before they start."

I completely agree that parents should investigate what Waldorf education is and its basis. That's why I articipated in building the Waldorf Answers site, that is linked to from some 500 pages on the net.

It describes links to probably most relevant info there is on the net on WE and anthroposophy, for anyone interested to read up more about it.

As for what Northern writes here at MN, it mostly is twisted WC material cultivated to make anthriposophy sound as strange as possible and smear WE and cultivate paranoia against it.

The Wikipedia article on anthroposophy is quite good. Since an arbitration last year, its editors are only allowed to use reliable sources on possible controversial issues. The WCs don't like that.

"Northern told she was pursuing an anti-Waldorf raid here at MN."

Is that what I put bee?
How do you know who I am?

Because you follow and keep tabs and guess and assume and make up what you think rather than facts?

Snd then post your assumptions as trth* and hope people will believe them?
Rather like your websites.
If you post enough times people might believe it?

Why do you stalk and misquote?

"When she has told - here at MN "

No- maybe once?, other places you are guessing, assuming, putting what you think , not facts, or anything I've posted.
You are stalking on the net.
Tell the truth bee.
You think I'm on some blogs, (oher forums I learnt not to mention) ou have followed. Any where people are discussing their personal experiences of Steiner, you follow, to try and stop the truth

You've talked about my maiden name FFS.

You,ve talked about not trying tofind ut here I live
You have continually poted what you think is my real name to try and harrassme.

AMum- thankyou for a very well put post.

Bee, you are unbelieveable.
Your Waldorf sites are bollocks.
They say nothing , just wishy washy nonsense and links to more of your sites or others which also obscure the true nature of the education.
They serve a purpose - to obfiscate and deflect from the real anthroposophical belief.
The Steiner organisation is well practised in this. The promotional material is carefully worded to give just enough which could be translated one way or another.

It is a big lie.

And the reason people who give their real experiences, and who have read a great deal of Steiner, and probably have more brains than most Steiner teachers piss you off as you so elegantly out it, is because you might be discovered.

Did you just participate in the waldorf sites? How modest you suddenly are.
I thought they were all yours, with a bit of help from two americans from mothering.com.

"What I say 'in defense of the Waldorfians' is that 'they don't eat babies.' "

I have to agree... they don't. They harm children, however... and then cover it up, call the children who expose them liars, even threaten them and their parents. This behavior is common in Waldorf... not the exception. So yeah, they don't eat babies - only because that's where they have drawn the line. Anything else is (and always has been) fair game.

Nobody says Waldorf teachers aren't allowed to make mistakes, but in an environment where all the teachers are bound by a religious philosophy (remember the Catholic priest scandal?) - we see very little (if any) discipline directed at bad teachers. Here is a thread describing a Waldorf teacher Claire McConnell's behavior - who bound and gagged children to their chairs. The Waldorf school LET HER CONTINUE TO WORK FOR ANOTHER YEAR UNTIL SHE DID IT AGAIN. She's now teaching in the UK, I understand, as an au pair and writing a book (perhaps on discipline).

BTW, since she's the daughter of a US Senator, nobody should be surprised if the links no longer work. The report is legitimate - but you won't find this sort of thing reported on Wikipedia. Waldorf is great there - ask any Waldorf teacher who wrote the article.

"What I say 'in defense of the Waldorfians' is that 'they don't eat babies.' "

I have to agree... they don't. They harm children, however... and then cover it up, call the children who expose them liars, even threaten them and their parents. This behavior is common in Waldorf... not the exception. So yeah, they don't eat babies - only because that's where they have drawn the line. Anything else is (and always has been) fair game.

Nobody says Waldorf teachers aren't allowed to make mistakes, but in an environment where all the teachers are bound by a religious philosophy (remember the Catholic priest scandal?) - we see very little (if any) discipline directed at bad teachers. Here is a thread describing a Waldorf teacher Claire McConnell's behavior - who bound and gagged children to their chairs. The Waldorf school LET HER CONTINUE TO WORK FOR ANOTHER YEAR UNTIL SHE DID IT AGAIN. She's now teaching in the UK, I understand, as an au pair and writing a book (perhaps on discipline).

BTW, since she's the daughter of a US Senator, nobody should be surprised if the links no longer work. The report is legitimate - but you won't find this sort of thing reported on Wikipedia. Waldorf is great there - ask any Waldorf teacher who wrote the article.

Good Grief Pete! That story about the teacher binding a gagging a child!

Oh! Crikey! Bee! Look! Isn't that the one which was threatened with a law suite!

There it is!

Here is one link to the story I mentioned

HERE is a webpage by a Waldorf student discussing Waldorf education.

It's four pages long, had a lot of interest too.