How essential is a language GCSE?

[AuroraHunter]

Dd is picking her gcse options. She's academically able, will pass whatever subjects she picks.

The school are very keen for her to pick a language gcse, but it means dd won't be able to do textiles which is one of her favourite classes.

Ive had a google, and apparently a foreign language isn't necessary, however the government does judge schools on the amount of children doing the EBac.

Neither spanish nor textiles is something she would want to continue to A level - her heart lies with the sciences and she's keen to study some kind of engineering at uni.

The option blocks imposed by many schools are part of the problem. Sounds like column A doesn't have a great variety for the OPs DDs inclinations. DDs school had a member of staff with remarkable skill at constructing timetables to fit with almost any combination of options. It took a lot of effort! Probably that requires at least some degree of slack in staffing levels.

Yes, good point Errol. My DC's school also do it the other way round in that at both GCSE and A level they ask the pupils to name their preferred subjects plus one reserve choice and then construct the option blocks around that as far as is possible. It's rare not to get all your options and I have never heard of anyone who didn't at least get their reserve. But it must be a logistical nightmare, a huge amount of work and be dependent on having enough staff and labs etc to allow flexibility. I quite understand why some schools have to have to have rigid option blocks.

Yes my dcs' school asked for choices then worked round that. An option block that offers only 2 MFL you've not done before, PE which requires some sporting talent, and business is pretty inflexible and is going to lead to a big class for business!

Maybe there are lots of reasons indeed, and ofc grades are important, but so is a range of subjects.

Tbf ds2 in 2019 was sitting fully new spec GCSE, and lots took 10 as i say, but maybe schools started changing things after that.

Maybe covid is also to blame?

French academics expect people to speak French in France, there isn’t a science/arts divide.

It’s unaccountable the popularity of Business as a subject. I say this as someone with an O Level in Economics. At our local secondary the main reason kids go for Business as a subject is because the trip is to Disneyland Paris. Languages are in a different block for options choosing.

There's a huge assumption here that dc take triple science. Obviously humanities and arts dc don't need to. This frees up one. Our local girls grammar did double science until very recently. Scientists won't be taking creative A levels, so double science is fine. Nearly every school I know says 9 GCSEs. Unless DC is struggling.

@AuroraHunter

Why does dc not have the option of continuing with the MFL they have started? These option blocks are odd and too many schools skew towards sciences.

I fundamentally do not agree that MFLs are vocational. At best they do provide a cultural overview of the country and lead to greater understanding of what makes others tick. We are slipping off the global stage due to lack of military power and Brexit. We are somewhat marooned. We desperately need to engage with other nations. We appear insular and without influence and it's very noticeable, if you are older, that we appear fixated on ourselves.

Our services exports outstrip our goods exports.

French academics expect people to speak French in France, there isn’t a science/arts divide.

Glad I'm not an academic then, DH and I (PhD stem types but in industry) have never come across this.

There's a huge assumption here that dc take triple science. Obviously humanities and arts dc don't need to. This frees up one. Our local girls grammar did double science until very recently. Scientists won't be taking creative A levels, so double science is fine.

The specific DC, the OPs DD wants to do triple science, there's no assumption. Some scientists may want to do a creative or tech A level, but the fact they may not be able to do so within the very limited number is no reason - rather the reverse! - for assuming they won't benefit from the subjects at GCSE.

There have been comments that for other dc in other schools that there's limited choice - this is because many schools push 3 sciences. In general. This used to not be the case. For many it's totally unnecessary.

They shouldn't be pushing triple science on everyone, and for able students it should be possible to do alongside as many other options. Is that not still quite a common model?

Looking ahead, some.jniversities are very keen that students have an MFL to at least GCSE standard.

That's just not true at all, as already stated by many on this thread. Even UCL has dropped the requirement.

Don't bother.

I got a B in GCSE French. What that meant in practice was I could have a very restricted conversation on a very narrow range of topics. I have forgotten all of it. I can barely remember simple nouns now.

I gave up German in year 9. Decided to learn it as an adult because I was moving there and now I'm fluent. It wasn't any more difficult to learn because I didn't do the GCSE.

When I tutor German teenagers in English the difference is laughable. They can talk about politics, geography, climate change etc at the age of 16. They are way way way ahead of where a British language GCSE puts kids.

If she wants to learn a language she is better off doing it on her own time IMO.

How did you learn German @BertieBotts ? I mean did you do something like Geothe institute?

No, I did Duolingo solidly for about a year, then on and off for a couple of years, and then I've been self-taught via immersion because I live and work in Germany. My first job here was in English, teaching EFL. I did that for about five years. Then I left to have DS2. Then I worked in a shop, in German, for about six months which was probably the biggest boost to my language because I was using it every day with colleagues and customers.

Six months of Duolingo that I did before moving here got me to a level of being able to have a conversation that was similar to if not better than my GCSE French level. Granted, I didn't (and still don't) know the grammar rules in the way I studied them in French at school. I probably could study them and I will have to at some point but I have been very unmotivated to do it.

I meant to do a course but honestly never got around to it. I am about to do one in the next few months (B2 level) and I have been here for 11 years 😅

That's great @BertieBotts and certainly the best way to become fluent. I wouldn't worry so much about grammar rules tbh - I have heard Germans get the word order wrong more than once!

In its defence, I would add that the current GCSE is better (IMHO) than the one you took - and now requires some ability to talk about the environment, basic political issues (homelessness, charities) and some cultural issues.

I agree tho that the level of knowledge from young people in Germany is far better - but then as already mentioned o here, it will be - English is everywhere for them and there is a massive impetus to learn it.

The thing is Bertie, if nobody does GCSE (and I'm not suggesting OP's child does), falls in love with it, does it to A Level then studies it at uni, we won't have anybody who could be teaching courses to adults who suddenly decide that they do want to learn later. This is why we have a shortage of teachers. We can 'import' some via visa sponsorship, but realistically that is not going to fill a gap.
I wouldn't claim that I was a mathematician or a physicist from my GCSEs either, but studying them wasn't useless and gave me a platform to continue them if I wished. You can pretty much say that about any GCSE, in my opinion.

I studied MFL to degree level and trained to teach them and frankly wish I'd gone with subjects I was genuinely interested in, I've only ever been offered two jobs that needed even a smattering of other languages. We speak the international language, so unless the language on offer is Spanish ( and even then think carefully) I'd be inclined to encourage her to study the subject she enjoys.

I don't think it will be long now before MFL disappears from the school system unless it's Russian, Mandarin or Arabic.

@ErrolTheDragon
Theres been a huge push for Stem and not a broad education. More than half of a DCs GCSEs can be maths, technology and sciences even with double science. That leaves arts, humanities and MFLs shoehorned into a few GCSEs of which 2 are compulsory English. Even if 9 are taken, choice is very limited and linguists are often barely catered for.

Some elite unis do look at GCSEs. They don’t require a MFL. Such a shame some of them don’t require a MFL.

I really can never remotely understand why people continue to see MFL as a vocational degree!!! It isn’t. It’s academic in the same way English or History is, with the bonus of learning other languages. The best degrees are in depth academic degrees not Duolingo substitutes! My DD has a a MFL degree and doesn’t “use” the languages. She does use her brain that absorbs info very quickly, the ability and confidence speaking other languages confers, especially from the year abroad, and used her degree as a springboard to her career. The area of her MFL she really enjoyed was Medieval French. Not particularly job worthy but a bit more intellectual than Duolingo.

I'm really surprised to read this thread (a week or so late) - I am not great at languages but find that my GCSE French/Spanish/Latin is really helpful for understanding grammar construction, word origins and technical language. It can challenge a bright child and teach their brain new ways of learning and thinking. It also opens doors later on for work, study and travel - a GCSE-level smattering is a better starting point (even if the language spoken in the visited country is different) than none.

Yes, other nations speak English better than we speak their languages, but that's no reason not to try. I think it should be strongly encouraged at GCSE.

If your child is at any point interested in working internationally, a GCSE in a language is a great asset.

It's not the actual language chosen, per se, but proven intellectual ability to learn a language to a basic level.

I saw this as someone who has worked in and recruited to international organisations for over two decades. Ability to learn a second language is a skill that British people fall way behind other nationalities, to their detriment. They tend to get by on the fact English-dominates (including at the UN etc), but this is changing.

If your child doesn't see themselves ever leaving the UK and working internationally, then it probably doesn't matter. Although it is a positive stretch intellectually and can widen perspectives about how different people see the world in a way that a GCSE in textiles will not.

More of a recommendation than an absolute must I would say. I did French and while it's useful to know a bit of a foreign language I didn't need it for my degree and haven't really used it since apart from on holiday. I did science A levels and degree and really don't think anyone has ever cared that I had a French GCSE!
I think she should pick textiles if she enjoys it because she's more likely to do well, and a subject like that is good for MH. I did art GCSE and I loved those lessons so much because they were a break from the stress. Studying a foreign language that she doesn't enjoy is going to be hard going for her on top of all her other core subjects.
My DD will be picking GCSEs next year, she's got 2 subjects she really wants to do but not sure about a 3rd, I've been encouraging her to continue with Spanish because she's been doing well with it and I think it would be useful but she is saying no she hates it , so I definitely won't be forcing her into it! I would rather she does something she enjoys.

@MsJuniper I totally agree. I have young people in my family who are truly dull. Intelligent but dull. They don’t see any value in travel or learning outside their immediate interests. One didn’t want go on a uni study trip abroad. A tiny group from
the course elected for a uk location - mainly girls whose parents are maybe too controlling. DC know their subjects but have no broader education and not remotely interested in a year abroad. This is why we end up not challenging ourselves. The jobs are there for them but self limiting life experience seems wrong to me.

Oh my goodness I hope and pray you are wrong about that! That would be such a terrible legacy to leave future generations.

As @tadjennyp said, and others have also said on this thread, GCSE is a stepping stone to further study of the subject - and that works for biology and computing and yes, MFL. Very few dc can keep up any large number of their GCSE choices but that doesn't make them pointless. I mean I have only rarely used the knowledge of electoral reform garnered from my history O level but I still think it was worth learning.

Edited to add great post too from @MsJuniper

I am definitely not suggesting that nobody should do it. If someone it interested in languages, then it's a great option and if they continue to A Level then it's a valid and very convenient route to learn (you're at school anyway) rather than having to be self-motivated.

What I mean is that it doesn't make sense for it to be universally required/recommended to every child as a kind of "they'll have this skill just in case" - especially if it pushes out other options that they actually want to do. Because if you don't continue it to A Level, then I don't think it does sufficiently give you the skill. And anyway you could make this argument for any subject.

I am glad to hear the GCSE has improved in the last 20 years but I still think in the UK it isn't taught at a high enough standard for it to make sense for it to be mandatory or even strongly recommended to all. That isn't the fault of teachers, my language teachers were excellent and I enjoyed my MFL classes. But in OP's case specifically, I don't think it makes sense to encourage her DD to take French over Textiles.