How essential is a language GCSE?

[AuroraHunter]

Dd is picking her gcse options. She's academically able, will pass whatever subjects she picks.

The school are very keen for her to pick a language gcse, but it means dd won't be able to do textiles which is one of her favourite classes.

Ive had a google, and apparently a foreign language isn't necessary, however the government does judge schools on the amount of children doing the EBac.

Neither spanish nor textiles is something she would want to continue to A level - her heart lies with the sciences and she's keen to study some kind of engineering at uni.

It's not incorrect.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by 'most Northern European countries' but the average European does not speak several languages. They may "do" them in school, in the same way that British children may learn French or German at school, but that doesn't mean they can actually speak the language or that they're motivated to learn it.

The trend increasingly is to rely on English everywhere. I was recently talking to Italian teenagers about their Erasmus visits to Spain and Germany. I assumed they had gone to improve their ability in the local languages, but they told me they just spoke English. And as I said above, as an English speaker even when you do speak the local language, you'll often have people insisting on speaking English with you anyway. So you might wonder why you bothered to make the effort.

Don’t forget about asking where the libarary is in La Rochelle! 😂

But seriously, I do think learning a language is of real value. Even just in terms of the way it wires your brain and the benefits that can have in other subject areas.

Timetabling might not even allow for textiles instead of a language.

What a shame people aren't learning languages anymore.

I find this incredibly sad and as a country (UK) we should encourage more DC to speak a language. Yea if a child is struggling then drop it but I don’t think people realise how many doors another language opens. I am self taught in two languages and in my job it has opened so many doors. It should be taught from a young age and taught properly not the half hearted attempt the U.K do.

Although learning a language should be a practical skill, it doesn't seem to have been really taught as such in our schools.

Unfortunately even languages teachers know that in the UK, few people will ever use the foreign language they learned at school to do anything more than say 'Two beers please'. We certainly teach it as a practical skill, as far as is possible within the bounds of the GCSE curriculum, and wecare forever extolling the virtues and practical and career uses of speaking a foreign language, but it doesn't ring true for most kids.

As a fluent French speaker, with a first class degree and a special award for the best speaking exam on the course, I'd say do textiles. I didn't need an A-level in French to get on my degree - I changed my mind later on after doing maths and taught myself French from a book and CD.
At school you're learning how to learn, you are far better off doing that through things you love, that excite you and make you happy.

A broad education means learning a language. Bright dc should do one. DH is an engineer and he managed it. They do show that dc is an all rounder! Textiles will not help with engineering but possibly more fun than Spanish. Just less academic.

My DD did MFL at uni. It's training the brain really! Transferable skills are an important thing dc learn as the degree isn't just speaking the MFL. How sad we cannot see how important MFLs are. Even for boring engineers!

Thanks for all the replies. Its given me lots to think about.

The timetable bands means that it is very much an either/or case between Spanish and textiles.

My gut says that she will get more enjoyment out of textiles and i quite like that it's one lesson where the dc are allowed to chat with eachother throughout the lesson whilst working on their pieces.

Engineers are true creators, not 'boring'. (Well unless they're mining engineers, boom tish)

I'd argue doing something like textiles in an otherwise 'academic' mix also shows an 'all rounder' with design and practical elements even if it's not the most directly engineering-related tech subject. Creativity is an incredibly important part of the skills mix!

In an ideal world I guess the OPs DD wouldn't have to choose - but she does.

Oh absolutely.
I'm not opposed to studying languages at all - I chose 2 for O level myself when all said and done and quite enjoyed them. I just don't buy into the hyperbole spouted by some people (not you!) around the necessity of doing so.
I think it should be an option for everyone and I would like to see languages introduced into the curriculum much earlier to give British youngsters a fighting chance of achieving something approaching the standard of their peers in other countries. But I don't think there are strong enough reasons to make it compulsory to study a language at GCSE and I disagree with the government's attempts to do so by means of the EBacc. (But then I disapprove of the EBacc for a number of reasons, not least its detrimental effects on practical and creative subjects.)

Excellent post, @MrsAvocet !

I did languages and textiles and I would be choose textiles.

Huge numbers of people who aren't native anglophones - certainly those working in some sectors and global organisations demonstrably do learn English, it's not an unfounded assumption. They may learn other languages as well but have you ever been in a meeting with colleagues from Japan, Korea, India, Germany, France, Russia, Bulgaria, China ... etc which was conducted in anything other than English?

Yes, many times. I've even worked in companies in London where the language of the company wasn't English and some meetings and almost all documentation was in French. I've had similar experiences having to use German in London. This is in Financial Services. I've lived and worked in Paris and chaired meetings in French, trained people in French, written documents in French, presented to clients in French and even done some fairly technical interviews in French (so technical that my French colleagues didn't even know the French terms for what I was presenting so we had to settle on using the English with a French accent). Note I wasn't hired for my language skills, I was hired for my business experience but having a second language has opened many extra doors for me.

I'm 100% English. Boringly so actually as there isn't even a hint of anything other than English in my background/family going back several centuries. (No chance of another passport for me post-Brexit grr). I started French at secondary school (a fairly rough comprehensive, definitely not private), did A level, did Economics and French at uni, went into Financial Services. I've used my French throughout my career pretty much. French/Swiss colleagues are usually delighted that I can speak French and always express their surprise (what a truly appalling reputation us Brits have for languages!) I also speak some Spanish, Italian, German and Cantonese (I lived and worked in Hong Kong for a few years - where I also spoke some French as there are a lot of French derivatives traders there) and I've used all of them in a work context although only for more simple things. It is always well received.

My current employer is a big name global financial institution. Almost everyone I work with speaks multiple languages. It's very much the norm in my industry. It's rare to have a week when I only speak or hear English. It's not just the language skills but also having an understanding some of the cultural differences that can really make a difference.

I think it's incredibly sad that people just don't want to learn languages these days (as is evidenced by the majority of posters on this thread saying not to bother). There's so much to be gained, much more than just the knowledge of another language.

I think it's very important to study modern language but most likely your child won't learn a lot. Ours had the GCSE language as extracurriculum outside school and did well because of that. They did classes in our native language too.

Oldest dd works in France and is now fluent in 4 languages.

@IcedPurple i was going to write a reply to you about “why bother” but this one sums it up. Like this poster, although i am not as accomplished, I have had opportunities in the UK with companies with a global outlook.
In most cases the language skills set me apart from other candidates but more so the fact that I am culturally adept and can navigate complex multinational organisations. There is much to be gained, financially and personally.

@MrsAvocet

My DDs both did Ebacc and creative/art subjects. DD2 did Art and Drama at GCSE and then did 2 creative A levels as well. Where the difficulty arises is the push for stem and some dc taking vast numbers of stem GCSEs. A standard set of GCSEs allows for at least a humanity and a creative subject on top of the Ebacc. Schools just don't expect dc to bother with a broad education so they don't offer it. It's not EBac that's pushed out arts and creative subjects, it's parents, dc and schools.

There's no appetite to teach languages and the big message is always that it doesn't matter. It does. We are losing our global position because we look inwards.
@ErrolTheDragon

Obviously "boring" was a generalisation. Engineering and textiles really are not the same! Not sure how many engineers you have met in your life! I've met a lot. The over reliance on maths is now stifling creativity. Also the only interesting engineer I ever worked with I ended up marrying. They can be a needle in a haystack.

@TizerorFizz I don't think it's just the EBacc but I think it's* *a significant factor.
My DC's school offers 9 GCSEs and the vast majority of pupils are expected to sit EBacc qualifying subjects. So after they've done maths, English x2, Science x3 a humanity and an MFL that leaves only one genuine free choice. A pupil who wants to do a second humanity or 2 languages has no space for anything else and those who don't only have room for one other subject, which inevitably reduces both choice and the numbers taking each minority subject.
One of my DS's picked PE for but had he not been basically forced to do French he would almost certainly have chosen either DT or music too. Given that less than 2% of pupils sat more than 9 GCSEs in 2023 and 8 and 9 are the commonest options I'd guess that it is a similar picture in a lot of schools. Yes, ok, there will be some out of that numbers who do another subject or two in a different year but it will still affect the choices of a large number of pupils.
But it goes further than options for the individual pupil.My other son chose music and was in of a class of I think 7 out of a year group of 160. If that continues how long does it remains sustainable for schools to offer exam courses in all the creative and practical subjects? And if you're not offering GCSEs or A levels in a subject, given the financial pressures on schools why go to the expense of employing specialist teachers - and who'd want the jobs anyway? If that happens, where does that leave music etc provision in KS3? These subjects are already being sidelined largely in primary schools so children's exposure to creative subjects is lessened already. I think it's the thin end of the wedge.
(And its the EBacc concept, not languages I object to specifically. It's just that for my son French was the issue as he would have chosen history anyway.)

Quite so, MrsA. I'm so glad my dd was pre-reform and could do the subjects she wanted to (academic, tech and drama) as well as the ones she'd have happily done without.

The UKs global position depends massively on our creative and technological abilities. The narrow overemphasis on 'academic' school subjects is misguided. And that's leaving aside personal development. Yes, of course learning languages alongside cultural experience can be wonderfully enriching for some individuals (one of the engineers I know started learning Japanese at uni and continues to self-teach .. reading and writing as well as spoken and takes an actin interest in their politics and culture.). But for others, art, design, music, more practical subjects .... it's a tragedy these are being undervalued and squeezed out.

I have a language degree and never used it since.

The PP who said you need a language qualification to learn about other cultures is talking bollocks.

Given that less than 2% of pupils sat more than 9 GCSEs in 2023 and 8 and 9 are the commonest options I'd guess that it is a similar picture in a lot of schools

Wow @MrsAvocet that's quite shocking actually.

I totally hear you on the Ebacc and STEM focus pushing creative subjects to the sides. My DC took PE and catering and music and drama (not all the same child haha) all of which were immensely valuable. And as a teacher I have seen plenty of DC for whom a BTEC in animal care or DT GCSE was the place they flourished. It's not OK that these subjects are being squeezed.

My shock is for the 2% taking more than 10 tho - both my younger DC took triple science which meant they took 10 - as did all the triple cohort (I guess about 100 DC in a 200+ year). DS2 took his in 2019 so not ages ago, and all under the new spec. I'm pretty sure their school ws far from unusual in this offer, but clearly that's changed.

I wonder what is the reason for this sudden and rapid scaling down of options for our DC?

I wonder what is the reason for this sudden and rapid scaling down of options for our DC?

The gcse reforms and budget constraints?
There was, I think, a step change in the number of subjects taken when they switched from letter to number grades. DD, pre reform, was at a school where 11 GCSEs was the norm, with many doing one or two extra 'twilight class' subjects. At about the same time there was, I think, a squeeze on school budgets.

The EBacc existed then, but could be easily accommodated within 11 or 12 subjects. Once you've dropped to 8 or 9, then it disproportionately limits the options. Add in budget constraints and subjects with low uptake and/or specialist teachers become a luxury the school can't afford.

Yes, dd is going to be doing 9 GCSEs

The compulsory ones are

English x2 (language and literature)
Science x2
Maths
History OR Geography

So that is already 6/9

Then the 3 she can pick for herself are divided into columm A, B and C.

Triple Science only appears once (in column C) , and shes very keen on doing that. So thats her pick for C

Column A does contain 2 languages but not ones shes ever taken before, and she doesn't fancy trying to learn a language from scratch in 2 years. So shes picking either PE or business studies.

Column B is the only one where Textiles appears. And spanish is only in B&C.

I think it is primarily the demands of the new curriculum, particularly in Maths and English. My eldest did 11 GCSEs (old lettered version) middle one 10 and youngest 9. Between DC2 and 3 the school restructured the timetable into a 2 week rolling programme which has both maths and english virtually every day as they feel that amount of time is necessary to cover the syllabi properly. Inevitably that time has to come from somewhere and in terms of progression to A level/University there's no need for more GCSEs and fewer at higher grades is better than more with lower. I see the rationale and our school is the best performing non selective school in the county so it's a strategy that's delivering results, but it does limit options, particularly for the less traditionally academic pupils.
DH and I both work in STEM fields and that's the direction that 2 out of 3 of our children are taking too, so in terms of career progression it's not a huge deal for them, but I think that education should be a bit more than that! Fortunately the school has a lot of extracurricular options and we can also afford plenty of out of school stuff so I don't think my own children have missed out particularly, but not everyone is that fortunate of course.
I think it's a perfect storm of budget constraints, the EBacc and new curriculum (Covid and Brexit also probably have something to do with it!) but the overall direction of travel is worrying. I'm glad my youngest finishes this year. I think my children actually had a really good education and we're very lucky to have excellent state schools where we live, but I can't see how even the best teachers can continue to deliver much longer in the current climate.

My parents also spoke five languages plus took Latin which has also been dropped in UK state schools.

Dropped in some state schools. Three of the four schools my dc have attended have had Latin either for some or all students in the lower school. The other school had three MFL instead.

Agreed