How essential is a language GCSE?

[AuroraHunter]

Dd is picking her gcse options. She's academically able, will pass whatever subjects she picks.

The school are very keen for her to pick a language gcse, but it means dd won't be able to do textiles which is one of her favourite classes.

Ive had a google, and apparently a foreign language isn't necessary, however the government does judge schools on the amount of children doing the EBac.

Neither spanish nor textiles is something she would want to continue to A level - her heart lies with the sciences and she's keen to study some kind of engineering at uni.

So the OPs DD having learned some Spanish would still piss them off?

My colleagues, and the customers DH used to visit, seem quite happy to display their superior linguistic abilities. Fluent and such beautiful accents.

The implications are limitations on your ability to pursue an international career, as well as limiting your cultural horizons. Given pretty much all private schools seem to mandate MFL to GCSE (and lots of even the scientists continue it beyond through IB), thus feels like another area where a gulf is opening up between the state and privately educated.

I'd be all in favour of compulsory MFLs at GCSE if they were taught to any meaningful level. But they aren't. I got As (highest available at the time) for French and German O levels and they left me able to read a menu or get on the right train on holiday but little more. My DS got an 8 for French a couple of years ago and probably would struggle to even order a meal in French now.
I don't think that having a GCSE or probably even A level in a language is likely to equip anyone to use that language in a work setting unless they have significant additional exposure to the language. In fact my DH speaks one European language fairly well as it's his Mum's first language but he still tends to communicate in English with business associates from that country as often their English is even better. He attends a lot of international meetings and conferences. They are almost all conducted in English as that is often the common language when there are delegates from many different countries, or there is simultaneous translation available when necessary.
I think lots of us would like to be able to speak other languages well - popularity of things like Duolingo would certainly suggest that - but I don't think that most people will find their careers are in any way limited by not having taken a MFL at GCSE. If the government was really serious about improving language teaching in the UK then they should be making it a meaningful part of the primary school curriculum. I think we need to be exposing children to different languages far earlier, not forcing them to study fairly pointless syllabi in their teens. And if we are looking to teach a useful language in terms of doing business it probably should be Mandarin not French!

Exactly. Another MFL teacher here. It's sad that languages are not a priority in the UK, but it's a natural consequence of the dominance of English in the world.

But then look at our European friends - they all seem to manage to achieve a high degree of proficiency in other languages. Are they just cleverer than us?!

No, of course not. They are surrounded by English all the time, every single day. Whereas how often will my GCSE German students see or hear a single word of German outside of schoolwork? Literally never. Not once.

Also, living in a country bordered by at least a couple of other countries, especially if you live near the border, you are likely to hear more languages around you. It's more normalised to hear people communicating in several languages. On our monoglot island, not so much. Many ofy students who are most receptive to learning MFL are ones who speak another (not necessarily European) language at home.

I'd be all in favour of compulsory MFLs at GCSE if they were taught to any meaningful level. But they aren't. I got As (highest available at the time) for French and German O levels and they left me able to read a menu or get on the right train on holiday but little more. My DS got an 8 for French a couple of years ago and probably would struggle to even order a meal in French now.

There's nothing much wrong with the content or the level they are supposed to attain by GCSE imo. What's wrong is that it's hard to actually learn how to speak a language in a couple of hours a week, especially when you've got umpteen other subjects to work on. Then, as soon as you stop having lessons, you lose that knowledge pretty fast. Plus speaking is only 25% of the exam, so you have to spend quite a lot of time on reading comprehension and writing.

My best GCSE students have a good level of conversational French/German. Certainly a LOT more than the ability to read a menu or get on the right train.

Great posts @AllProperTeaIsTheft. I do think the MFL GCSE is actually good. Yes, it won’t make you fluent; but then my A at O level maths doesn’t make me Alan Turing. If I wanted to be a mathematician tho, I would need it. It would be a first step.

And yes, as I am sure I have said on MN before, if a student gains 8/9 at GCSE German, they can do a lot more than order a meal. If they don’t go use their German then they will lose it. Same as I can’t recall much of my school chemistry now. Still worth studying tho.

I didn't do a foreign language and it has literally never disadvantaged me in 15 years of work. If she prefers textiles let her do textiles.

Thanks @clary . I find the 'Brits are shit at languages' thing so annoying. It's not a lack of ability. It's a lack of sufficient opportunity, exposure and cultural attitude. It really doesn't help that the random, piecemeal and inconsistent provision of MFL in primary schools gives them such a poor start.

As a fairly mediocre “European” who has thrived in the UK, also in Europe, I can promise you that they are not smarter but it is perhaps because European children learn foreign languages from an early age through media (films, music etc) and it is taught in schools from young ages. Many European countries have multiple languages and citizens from smaller countries generally have a necessity and the motivation to learn FL. Few people speak Dutch, Luxembourgish, Danish, Finnish, Polish, Czech, etc.

My older 2 didn't do a MFL after year 9 and ds3 isn't keen either. At our school it was compulsory so I took French and failed it.

I am bilingual and think that it’s fine not to do an MFL.

GCSE MFL qualifications are weak and not helpful for an international career or living overseas. I know that a lot of adults wish that they could speak another language but GCSE isn’t going to be helpful.

I also think that it’s likely to be the subject that is hardest to recruit for so if the current teacher leaves then the students are seriously screwed.

One of my kids didn’t do an MFL but did a practical subject instead. He liked studying a subject that was very different and not classroom based. GCSEs are tough and coursework deadlines will be stressful but being interested in the subject matter will go a long way.

My best GCSE students have a good level of conversational French/German. Certainly a LOT more than the ability to read a menu or get on the right train.
Well yes, so could I when I was actually at school of course but that's about as far as the long term benefit of my MFL education goes.I certainly wouldn't be at any significant advantage over someone who hadn't done those O levels if I was dealing with French or German people professionally.
Even when I went to Germany having fairly recently done my O levels, whilst I could make myself understood,my German was pitiful compared to the standard of English spoken by virtually all the young people I met who were around the same age as me. My niece has a degree in French but the receptionist at the hotel we stayed in recently replied to her in English as it was easier.
Surely the biggest difference is that they start to learn languages properly at a far younger age in other countries whereas apart from maybe singing the occasional French nursery rhyme in primary school most British children don't encounter other languages until year 7.,

Of course it's not a lack of ability.

It's mostly a lack of necessity.

Our school does French from reception up until year 11. Eldest daughter took to it naturally and therefore picked it as a subject - it could have been dropped. The French teacher then went off sick for 4 months and the other French teacher had to concentrate on the year 11s, leaving the year 10s with no teacher at all. She's now so far behind that a pass is unlikely. Youngest daughter won't be taking French now as there's just not enough teachers to cover an event like what happened with eldest. I've never used French post GCSE.

Of course it's not a lack of ability.

No, but a surprising amount of people seem to think it is!

People are saying that MGL GCSE is no use to help you speak the language – but how can that be true? As several posters have said, the GCSE is a stepping stone towards learning a language, a process that never ends. I am constantly learning new words in French and German; I speak them both pretty well and can carry on a convo with a native speaker but I am far from bilingual, obviously.

I have good knowledge of those MFL bc I studied them to a high level, trained to be a teacher, taught in school, tutor now and have been to relevant countries and spoken the language there frequently.

My Spanish now – I took O level in that about 40 years ago. That’s pretty much all. And yet when I went to Spain, or when looking at the Spanish GCSE work my DC did, I found that that long-ago qualification was still useful. I could remember a lot and if I put some work in I would recall and learn even more. It’s never a waste to learn something.

All that said, textiles is a great GCSE too and if the OP’s DD prefers that, then that is what she should take. Or could she take both?

People are saying that MGL GCSE is no use to help you speak the language – but how can that be true?

Exactly. In my (30 years of) experience, GCSE MFL gets able and/or hard-working students to a good standard, just as only some get to a good standard in chemistry or history. And just like in chemistry or history, most of them will have forgotten most of it a few years later if they haven't used it since.

Arguably though, the skill (and confidence) of being able to speak a language is lost more quickly and easily, and it's not really a skill that's best learned sitting in a classroom twice a week anyway. It's not like other school subjects!

Of course it's not pointless to learn anything and it would be good if languages were more of a priority in primary school in this country, but a young person's life is not, as some would have us believe, blighted if they don't take an MFL for GCSE.
GCSE doesn't get you to the standard needed to use a language in any professional sphere and whilst having done one might make it slightly easier if you did find you needed to learn a language in the future, not having done so needn't stop you. Some friends of mine have moved to Switzerland last year. He's an engineer. He's been hired for his engineering skills and not being able to speak French or German doesn't seem to have stopped him getting the job. I doubt the panel would have said "But wait...this other guy passed GCSE French in 1995, let's have him instead, he'll be much easier to communicate with." And all the family members seem to be picking up the language pretty quickly regardless of whether they've got an MFL GCSE or not anyway.
An MFL GCSE is just as good as any other if you're interested in the subject, but it's not essential and schools being focused on the EBacc pushes a lot of youngsters into doing one when they don't really want to.

My son isn't doing a language GCSE, it's not compulsory at our school. With all the other subjects that you get no choice in, there is a lot to be said for choosing something you really enjoy.

Not arguing with any of that @MrsAvocet

I have said on here and other threads that students should take what's interesting to them. That way they will get the best grades.

But GCSE is a good start to language learning - should you wish to do so. Hopefully we can agree on that.

That's the reality of it.

Unless they have a specific reason to learn, there is generally little practical need for British children to learn a foreign language. You can say that learning languages has other benefits, which is true, but for most people in Britain, they are rather abstract. Learning is always a good thing after all. However, for European children, there are many obvious reasons to learn English, and they are exposed to it from an early age. English speaking children just don't have the same motivation.

It seems fashionable to talk of practically but when and how MFLs lost their status as practical subjects is entirely to do with politics and fashion. Unconscious bias against them leads back to the current fashion to eschew anything european.

I honestly can't remember a time when they were particularly popular or viewed as 'practical subjects'.

So you must be too young to remember the UK being part of the EU and people going to live and work in other countries or with firms that did business with other countries. Or you just think let’s not bother to learn other languages, let’s just assume ‘foreign’ people learn our language.

And it can’t be in doubt that it’s a practical skill.

My question was a rhetorical one; I don’t really think they are cleverer. But I also don’t think their language capability is down to the factors you describe either. They are doing it because they prioritise it. We could do the same if we wanted.