Year 4 child not doing well at school - don't know how to help him/what to do.

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I've name changed for this as the situation is quite identifying. DS is an enigma and I don’t know how to help him to get the best out of him. He is in some ways very intelligent and always has been – his ability to understand things and link concepts is very strong, and always has been – for instance when he was 8 months old I told him we were going outside soon and he crawled to get his hat and brought it to me. For things he’s interested in he’s able to understand adult level materials.

He is a good reader, but not interested in reading fiction or longer books in order – he likes dipping in and out of non fiction books he’s interested in, but that’s where the positivity ends.

Basically he says he finds school ‘so so boring’ and he doesn’t need to learn how to write as he is planning to use AI and grammerly when he’s an adult to get his thoughts down. He understands maths concepts but has no interest in practicing them as he says a calculator is a much more accurate tool so what is the point in risking making a mistake. I’ve tried so hard to explain that it’s good to aquire skills because you don’t know what you’ll have access to, but he is not interested. As a result he is really behind in writing (I would say his work looks like a typical year 2’s in both presentation and handwriting) and is not ‘behind’ in maths but is extremely inaccurate as he can’t be arsed to learn and apply things like number bonds or times tables. If I get him to practice his tables he won’t answer with the actual number, he insists on answering with an alternative sum – so if I say what’s 8x3 he’ll reply with 48 / 2, which is fine and a fun game – but it means that there are quite a few he’s not learning as he doesn’t have an alternative sum at his fingertips. However if I sit and make him focus he can manage anything out of the CGP book at his level, so I think the maths is just lack of application.

I realise in some ways this sounds like a stealth boast but it’s really not, I’m beginning to worry a lot about what will happen at high school, we only have one comprehensive he can go to – private is not an option. The local school is good if you are in the top set but below that the behaviour is just not good and he is also very easily influenced by the children who are funny and push boundaries. I'm fairly sure he is intelligent enough to be top set for things, but the way he's going he is not going to be able to demonstrate his ability well enough.

I don’t know what help to ask the school for – I’ve tried raising things so many times, but have been brushed off with boys just not liking writing, that he’ll develop in his own time etc. and I accept that some of this might be true, but I don’t want to let him down and then it be too late for him to catch up/make the most of his achievements. We tried a tutor but he just messed around and constantly distracted himself/the tutor with chats about things he wanted to talk about. I’ve wondered about an ed psych assessment but I don’t actually know what I’d be asking them to do, and I’m just worried that it’s my crappy parenting that’s caused this, but then I have an older child who isn’t like this and is generally focused and achieving their best at school.

If you’ve manged to get this far thank you and I’d be interested in any views even if they might not be what I want to hear.

I think the fact that he messes around 1.1 with you and with the tutor is worrying. This isn't a case of needing more help. It is a case of knuckling down and doing stuff that he doesn't find intrinsically interesting. I would be insisting he does practise the things he is weaker in. I would give rewards for progress. I would not allow the messing around. Try taking away stuff he does value when he is disrespectful or refuses to engage. I would have been furious with him if I had paid for a tutor.

Thank you @cansu the tutor was when he was a bit younger, and I'm not sure he was ready - he wasn't outwardly disrespectful, in fact the tutor found his discussions about whether there is alien life out there quite endearing, but it's something I ended quickly as I could see I was wasting everyone's time and money.

I could try rewards but they are not always very sucessful with him and being strict doesn't work either - he's generally a really well behaved pleasant child and so laying the law down seems to make him dig his heels in as he's so unused to being forced to do anything (as most things he just does without arguement or upset)

Do you think he’s neurodiverse? Dyslexic? ADHD? ASD? How is he emotionally?

If he's very bright and has a good understanding of things I'd talk to him about his plans for the future, what he wants to be. I'd then talk to him about GCSE's and A-levels and Uni. Help him look up what grades he'll need to follow his chosen career path and see if that motivates him. If he wants a career that doesn't need maths or English let him crack on!

Or homeschool? Let him follow his passions. He's probably right about handwriting tbh.

I have wondered @Darkside1471 but it's hard to pinpoint anything - he is an excellent reader and could read fully by the end of reception - he didnt' get on with phonics, he seemed to just be able to read, so I'd be surprised if it was Dyslexia. I have wondered about ADHD as he has said that sometimes he has so many thoughts in his head he thinks about those and then he's missed some of the lesson at school, and he has said in the past that he really does try to focus but sometimes he's just so excited by his other ideas he can't not think about them - but how do you tell the difference between dreaminess and ADHD?! I did mention this to the school and was dismissed.

Some kids just do what is needed because they want to. Some don't. It may not be your preference but I would start laying down the law. A child who likes messing around, has writing like a much younger child, dislikes reading and won't practise is not really heading for the higher sets in secondary. The reality is that the best outcomes in a large secondary with the associated behavioural issues that all schools have will be in the higher sets.

@NuffSaidSam thanks - yes that is a good idea - he wants to be an AI robotics engineer inventing new green energy sources 3 days a week, a cryptozoologist at weekends and a paleontologist 2 days a week so he does have big plans...!

@cansu I broadly agree - it's not that I don't want to be harsh it's just that if by laying the law down he spends an hour crying and not talking to me that's kind of counterintuititive!

He's definitely going to need Maths then! Handwriting probably less important.

I'd try and find some interviews with people who do those jobs where they're talking about what qualifications/experience they needed and how they got into it etc. Maybe even look for some autobiographies/biographies of people with that background.

The thing he needs to understand is that as it stands all exams will be handwritten. Ds2 has a professional level typing speed and is about to sit his A levels, but he has to hand write. He hates it, always has since KS1. His writing is inconsistent and messy but luckily just about legible.

Everything @NuffSaidSam is exactly what we did with both our children from around year 3/4. They understood that we don't live with our parents and that education is the key to choices. I know your son says things like he wants to be an AI robotics engineer but at his age he has no concept of what that job entails on a minute by minute, day to day basis so all great to have goals but he needs to learn to play the game. The game is currently meeting and hopefully exceeding his year 4 level targets. Next year it will year 5 targets and so on with acing out GCSEs and A levels to be able to choose a uni instead of saying I would love X uni but my grades means that one is too high an entry grade.

Lots of children will tell you they want to be a gaming programmer, they have no concept of the qualifications they will need what it actually involves.

Everything @cansu says as well, brilliantly put and probably talking from experience. Ds2 is 18 so my two have been through primary, secondary and sixth form. If your son cannot prove his ability he will be placed in lower sets where typically children with behavioural issues are because they too have not engaged with their education and sets are difficult to move between because in order to move your son up, they have to move someone down. There are only so many desks with seats.

He needs to understand that he may not like education but he isn't there to be entertained. He can entertain himself with his thoughts in school and outside of school he can research anything he wants. This was what Ds2 needed to do, he also mainly read factual books, watched a lot of youtube learning about the world. Played physics style computer games. He did year 7 maths on an open evening for his brother when he was year 4 because he just figured it out. You cannot parent from fear of him crying and not talking for a bit when you lay down how it needs to be. Sometimes we have to upset our children, like with bedtimes and no you cannot have chocolate for every meal.

Ds1 is coming to the end of his computer science degree at a top 10 RG university, he needed maths and further maths A levels, they can choose AI/robotics as a module in year 3. Although a uni entry grade will say AAA they don't have many in on that grade, they mainly take 3 or more A stars first then 2 A stars etc. Ds has 4 A stars.

Your son sounds great and if he applied himself to number bonds etc he could end up on a scholarship to a fee paying school. Worth a thought.

Thank you @TheNapkinPot that is very thoughtful.

I am going to get tougher with him, I just don't want to put him off entirely by being too pushy. I have spent so much over the years on different workbooks/resources etc. We did have some success with atom learning so maybe it's worth having a look at a digital platform again... although I don't really think that will work with writing.

Interestingly when he's allowed free access with MS word he can write absolutely perfectly, one teacher friend says that he'd be allowed to use a laptop at her school, but it's bigger and more open minded that DS's

Have a look at the inattentive subtype of ADHD and read about masking dyslexia. Personally I don’t think harsh discipline is the answer. You have to find what motivates him intrinsically and go from there but if he’s struggling with a diversity it will be REALLY hard for him without specialist help and perhaps meds if necessary.

The thing is SATs etc will be hand written and to be fair unless he had an EHCP I don't think staff would allow him to use a laptop in class. I know the whole dyslexia/ADHD and masking gets banded about a lot some children just don't want to do what doesn't interest them and they kick up a fuss about it. If he was showing any indicators then hopefully school would pick up on this as they see him in an classroom environment and against his peers.

I have worked with low ability children in a primary and some kids know they can run the clock. So they know when break time is, they know what time the lesson finishes and they take their sweet time over their work, never completing it and of course everything moves on. There is no time in the school day to catch children up. One teacher, one volunteer (TAs day off as they work 4 days) and a class of 30 children. How many do you think we can get round repeatedly? There were around 5 or 6 low ability children in the class, the teacher pushes the high ability and the tries to keep on top of the middle ability ones. And yes, some children complain every time they have to write something or do comprehension.

I am not saying rule it out completely but some children just don't like applying themselves to stuff they find boring. My friend's son could verbally create a story but wouldn't write it down because talking was easier, so capable but stubborn What does your teacher friend say about him?

I hated school and saw it as pointless. I received high grades but struggled to do things that I considered pointless. The worst thing to say to me as a child was that I had to do something 'because' or it's 'just what everyone had to do'.

As your son is intelligent and is able to link concepts, I would have a grownup conversation with him. Explain cause and effect / reward. If your son wants to use AI or computers he'll need maths. If he wants to get a good job that gives him freedom he'll need to get good grades in primary, which means he'll get into a good high school, then a good Uni. It's a domino effect if he doesn't apply himself now.

BTW I'm still like this as an adult and hate doing things that are nonsensical but I do them because I get paid.

BTW I dont agree with others that he's 'messing' around or being deliberately stubborn. Some people are able to just get on and do things because of social conditioning. It's hard for them to understand why others question everything and go against the grain.

I feel for you though, it's difficult as a parent.

With the maths, is he bored? Have you tried introducing him to harder concepts where he has to use his number bonds as part of solving it? If he wants to answer times tables with another sum, can you challenge him to still do the unique ones but use an addition sum or fractions?

At his age the handwriting is fixable, by GCSE’s you’ll be having to beg to be allowed to use a computer in exams, assuming he can type faster than write.

He is year 4, so maybe 8 years old? I wouldn’t stress. I did pretty much nothing until I was 14. Went on to achieve a 1st and an MBA. My brother left school with no qualifications at 16. Returned to education voluntarily at 23, now director of a significant English council.

Your boy is 8. He is practically brand new. Leave him be. Let him be :)

Sounds a lot like my ds (current in year 5). Very able and not engaged in school. He's got a lot more motivated this year as he wants to go to a nearby selective school. We've finally seen improvement and him getting closer to his potential.

His teacher says he comes alive at hard questions but fluffs easy ones through a lack of effort or rushing. He gets cocky and thinks he does not have to try.

His very experienced teacher also says primary school is not hugely exciting for some children who get more out of specialist subjects teaching at secondary level. I'm hoping my ds is one of these!

Like you OP, I have also wondered about ADHD for my ds but school dont see it.
For us , we make progress for small and often extra practice at home. Eg 10 spellings then play football for 15 mins as a reward. 15 mins on times tables /maths then a different reward.

He would rather chat on and delay for 2 hours then do 15 mins of work though 😃.

Wow thanks everyone - I had an early night and came back to loads more messages.

@Darkside1471 he may have an inattentive leaning, but I suppose with services so stretched it feels wrong to pursue it if we’re able to work out how to support him, especially as the things over time I have found that help him (like giving him a stop watch and a gold silver and bronze time target) I’m not sure school would have time to do with him. In an ideal world I’d have sent him to private for the smaller class sizes for ks2 (none of the private schools around here are very selective they just need the money) but we just simply don’t have a spare 15k a year for it.

@TheNapkinPot yes I’m not sure school would let him use a laptop either, and I agree that he needs to be able to write for sats. I haven’t asked my teacher friend in much detail as I don’t want to put her in an awkward position - plus teachers work hard enough as it is, I don’t expect my friend who’s a gp to give me medical advice, so I’ve applied the same logic. What I would really like is to find an experienced Ks2 teacher to let me know how bad the problems are or not - I feel he’s a bit lost in a class of 32 with an NQT (who I really like they’re a great teacher) but his teacher seems more amused by him, rather than seeing wasted potential. All the tutors around here seem very focussed on the tutoring/scores for entry to selective private rather than being able to help with a more holistic approach, which is why I thought about an ed psych, but again, I’m not sure the school would take notice of anything either.

@LondonTraveller we’ve had many conversations like that, it does help for a bit but then seems to wear off!

@BendingSpoons to an extent with maths - he cannot bear pages of sums, he does a lot better with the longer form more functional skills type problem solving. I can motivate him to do a bit of practice that way.

@LuxeBiscuit I tend to agree, he’s not really a silly child by nature he’s very sensible in day to day live and very focused and driven when he’s interested in something (for example he heard a palaeontologist on the radio and then sent them a ‘book’ he wrote about dinosaurs). Whenever he’s been in trouble at school which isn’t that often he has been extremely remorseful.

@Lesina he will be 9 soon, but yes for all my ‘pushy’ instincts I can’t help but then remind myself how young he really is to be worrying about this. I think it’s partly due to our lack of choice for 11 and beyond and knowing how hard it is to achieve if you’re not set 1/2.

@Zebrasinpyjamas thank you - yes very similar. I have also wondered if he’ll find the more content driven nature of secondary better 🤞🤞🤞

Hello, KS2 teacher here… he doesn’t sound rather behind, sorry.

If a chat about the importance of the school work followed by rewarding good behaviour consistently towards something manageable he can work towards eg 10 mins of number bonds / times tables practise per night plus writing two sentences (10 mins) and reading properly for 15 mins = 20/50p (or whatever ‘reward’ you deem acceptable / will motivate him). Get him to choose something he wants to buy and work towards. If he doesn’t do it no tv / no screen time / favourite toy that evening until done and be consistent. Ignore crying / nagging etc. Be firm but fair. Don’t accept him providing the answers to maths questions in his own way. He can do that another time.

Email his teacher and ask that she do similar - rewarding effort with housepoints / stickers and keeping him in sending work home if it’s not done.

If you are seeing no progress with his attitude towards school work after a month, book an appointment to meet with the school sendco and ask that she observes him in a lesson and looks through his books to see if she has any thoughts about his learning behaviours. At least he’ll be on his/her radar then. Ask to meet afterwards for feedback - you have to be pushy. If you can afford it, I would strongly, strongly recommend getting an Educational Psychologist assessment - ask the sendco for recommendations for names and if not, ask fellow parents or research online. You don’t need the school or sendco’s say so or recommendation to do this.

It maybe your son is strong willed and has definite ideas about how he wants to do things - controlling what he will and won’t do etc and it’s become ingrained as a habit…

It’s much more likely that there is a learning need and so he’s put these barriers in place to stop people realising he can’t do it / make things easier for himself in some way / more accessible to him - perhaps ADHD, poor working memory, slow/weak processing, dyslexia (just as he can read it doesn’t mean he’s not struggling / doesn’t have it), ASD etc.

If you’re able to spend the £800-£1200 on the Educational Psychologist assessment and report (it’s a half day assessment, likely at their place of work plus a questionnaire for you and the school teachers to fill in, perhaps an observation in school and a chat with you), then you’ll have a better understanding of his learning profile / strengths / challenges and any areas of need. They’ll also be recommendations in the report to help you and the teacher, help him. This could be use of a laptop but there are often 15 plus recommendations for children with very mild learning needs, which really help. I do it now before he gets further behind. It’s a frequent accordance at my school as the parent body are relatively wealthy and clued up about the system.

If you can’t afford it, you’ll have to put lots of pressure on the senco to have the school get an Educational Psychologist in at the local authority’s expense but unless he’s bouncing off the walls or really obviously neurodivergent and struggling he’ll be at the back of the queue and have to wait years - or won’t even be allowed to join the queue :/

What jumps out is that he's scared of failing and so doesn't try.

This is exactly what I would be doing, you wish to x in the future that means you need to study y at z university, to obtain a place there you need these grades. I would also try to watch some programs about AI and robotics engineering and then explore with him which universities they went to and what they studied.

I would also point out that he’s not going to be allowed to do the hard interesting stuff if he can’t complete the boring easy stuff.

I agree with @sunnyday81 that an EdPsych assessment (if you can afford one privately) would be very helpful.
My DS also presented as very bright, full of ideas and articulate, but real issues with attention / focus (in some contexts… generally not in a test! He told his Y4 teacher it was because “tests actually matter” 😳) and particular struggles with getting thoughts ordered and down on paper, and following instructions.
He was eventually diagnosed with ADHD and ASD in Y5. At no point was he struggling to keep up (he is one of those annoying children who teach the teachers stuff they didn’t know…), but everyone agreed that he wasn’t fulfilling his potential because of his challenges.
His diagnosis has meant we all understand him better (and he understands himself better!) and we all make things work in a way which helps him do his best. He’s now really happily settled at grammar school.
The EdPsych report (and follow on clinical diagnosis, or OT assessment) may really help in adjustments at school which will help your DS achieve his best too.

Thanks @TeaandHobnobs and @sunnyday81 I can afford a private Ed psych report, but it feels a bit daunting. How do I explain it to DS?

I also feel a bit like the school would think I was mad, they seem to be not at all bothered about his lack of achievement compared to his possible intellect, in fact his class teacher laughed at parents evening about his ‘interesting ideas’, and has also told him off before for going off on tangents in a story. TBH I’m just pleased he was motivated enough to write the story! I just don’t want to be labelled as the pushy mum, but my concerns are based on the mismatch of his intellectual ability vs his skills ability and where that will land him for secondary.

DS was already having 1:1 sessions at school, so I said to him that he was going to see someone who would do some assessments and tests with him, to see if there was anything we could be doing differently to help him with the stuff he struggled with.
ADHD and ASD had never crossed my mind at this point, so it genuinely was said with that intention.