Year 4 child not doing well at school - don't know how to help him/what to do.

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I've name changed for this as the situation is quite identifying. DS is an enigma and I don’t know how to help him to get the best out of him. He is in some ways very intelligent and always has been – his ability to understand things and link concepts is very strong, and always has been – for instance when he was 8 months old I told him we were going outside soon and he crawled to get his hat and brought it to me. For things he’s interested in he’s able to understand adult level materials.

He is a good reader, but not interested in reading fiction or longer books in order – he likes dipping in and out of non fiction books he’s interested in, but that’s where the positivity ends.

Basically he says he finds school ‘so so boring’ and he doesn’t need to learn how to write as he is planning to use AI and grammerly when he’s an adult to get his thoughts down. He understands maths concepts but has no interest in practicing them as he says a calculator is a much more accurate tool so what is the point in risking making a mistake. I’ve tried so hard to explain that it’s good to aquire skills because you don’t know what you’ll have access to, but he is not interested. As a result he is really behind in writing (I would say his work looks like a typical year 2’s in both presentation and handwriting) and is not ‘behind’ in maths but is extremely inaccurate as he can’t be arsed to learn and apply things like number bonds or times tables. If I get him to practice his tables he won’t answer with the actual number, he insists on answering with an alternative sum – so if I say what’s 8x3 he’ll reply with 48 / 2, which is fine and a fun game – but it means that there are quite a few he’s not learning as he doesn’t have an alternative sum at his fingertips. However if I sit and make him focus he can manage anything out of the CGP book at his level, so I think the maths is just lack of application.

I realise in some ways this sounds like a stealth boast but it’s really not, I’m beginning to worry a lot about what will happen at high school, we only have one comprehensive he can go to – private is not an option. The local school is good if you are in the top set but below that the behaviour is just not good and he is also very easily influenced by the children who are funny and push boundaries. I'm fairly sure he is intelligent enough to be top set for things, but the way he's going he is not going to be able to demonstrate his ability well enough.

I don’t know what help to ask the school for – I’ve tried raising things so many times, but have been brushed off with boys just not liking writing, that he’ll develop in his own time etc. and I accept that some of this might be true, but I don’t want to let him down and then it be too late for him to catch up/make the most of his achievements. We tried a tutor but he just messed around and constantly distracted himself/the tutor with chats about things he wanted to talk about. I’ve wondered about an ed psych assessment but I don’t actually know what I’d be asking them to do, and I’m just worried that it’s my crappy parenting that’s caused this, but then I have an older child who isn’t like this and is generally focused and achieving their best at school.

If you’ve manged to get this far thank you and I’d be interested in any views even if they might not be what I want to hear.

I work in secondary (and have previously in primary). We have tons of kids like this at the moment. Very capable kids but they just cannot concentrate for more than 10 minutes.
Some do have ADHD but I don't think all do. Students themselves tell me everyday they think (or parent thinks) they have ADHD or Autism and ask us to do assessments.
I work with kids who genuinely do have one or the other or both but we are finding that many children now want to have a label or the parents do. There is no way mainstream schools can cater to this trend if it carries on.

This is NOT to say that your son doesn't have Autism or ADHD and hopefully that can be determined soon in case he needs help, however it might just be a case of him not liking school, not putting in enough effort or something else.
Kids in school often see other kids getting out of doing the hard work when they have to do it and they wonder how this is fair.
Having teachers reward students who do work hard all the time is so important but I feel some just reward a bit of good behaviour from students who don't do much at all. Quiet or shy students (who do work hard) are often not rewarded as they should be.

Thanks @Badgertime I find teacher insights particularly helpful. He came out of school today buzzing as he got 39/40 on the times table test. It’s making me wonder if he can get a taste of what it feels like to get high marks it might be motivating. His school are not big on tests with marks until nearer year 6 but it might help.

If you can afford it, I would start with an ed psych evaluation, and go from there. It is not cheap but better than years of fumbling in the dark.
you might expect a very high IQ but a spiky profile with deficits in e.g. processing speed and identification of or recommendations for further investigation into one or more forms of DME (dual/multiple exceptionality) - it is common for such kids to have large gaps between latent ability and classroom performance.
schools can and do ignore ed pysch reports but it can still be helpful for your own understanding.

I've paid privately for both my boys to have EP assessments, one at 9 and one at 10. Both cost less than £500. Both came back with SpLD diagnoses despite school thinking nothing is wrong. I invest in an EP report, even if it comes back without a diagnosis, it should give you a much better understanding of his strengths and weaknesses and how he can learn best.

I agree with Lesina. He's very young, bright and able. School just doesn't suit some kids. Their minds work fast and writing slows them down, it bores them. By the time they've written a sentence, their mind has completed a book. Unless there are other issues at play, they gets to grips with it eventually but it might take a while. Be patient, encouraging and try not to stress.

Also, if he's possibly gifted and talented, maybe the work is not stimulating him or challenging him so easily bored.

Your son sounds very bright but it does sound like he is neurodiverse - not in a typical way but the way you explain the things he is interested in to the exclusion of other more practical things. I would definitely explore a senco assessment - even privately if you can afford it - so he can get some help to learn the basics like simple numeracy and writing then he will be better prepared for following his interests in the future. He sounds very bright and intelligent so well done for recognising this. There are many wonderful things we have today that we wouldn't have were it not for people like your son.

I would advise a dc with this profile to have neuro-psyc testing, it would be expensive, take up to a full half day. But it would rule in our autism/adhd and all of dyslexia etc group.
It would then be easier to plan out your approach because you understand what is lying underneath the issues.

I'm looking at it from a different side. Do you find yourself excusing his lack of work/application on the basis "well he's so clever he doesn't really need to do it" or "it's so easy for him, he's bored, can't expect him to do it"? Does he hear you say that sort of thing?

I knew someone who sounds very similar to your ds. Parent were very proud of their obviously bright child and when he didn't do things properly, or didn't achieve the best they always had an excuse. These excuses were often given in front of him.

He took in that opinion of himself and thought that if he had done it properly then everyone would be amazed, but he didn't need to bother.
He got a shock when he found that actually there were others as good, and even better, and he couldn't just sit down and automatically get full marks having not worked.
He was bright, don't get me wrong, but not as exceptionally bright as he'd been led to believe.
When he'd got over the shock, he resented his parents because he felt that he'd been misled into thinking he didn't need to work because he'd just pick it up by osmosis (his words) without trying.

He said that he wished his parents had ignored the fact he could do okay by messing about, and picked him up on his behaviour and not doing it properly. he said he probably wouldn't have listened at the time (!) but he'd have felt less let down by them, and also less guilty for not achieving brilliantly when he knew they expected.
Because he felt guilty at not achieving brilliantly when he felt it was expected, he continued to mess about and not do it properly, because it was less humiliating to not achieve and his parents say that he would have done well if he'd wanted to, than have them know that he'd worked and not achieved.

@MargaretThursday that sounds like a very sad situation, but not the case here - we've been nagging him since year 1 now as soon as it became clear that his attainment wasn't aligned to his other abilities. It's been hard to navigate the thin lines between 'hes young and wouldn't be at school yet'/'they all get there in their own time'/'kids have to suck it up and practice - all of which you can see on this thread! However I think the end of year 4 is long enough to see that he might not get there in his own time if left to his own devices.

I did 15 mins 1:1 with him this morning on fractions and decimals which they are due to start next week. 1:1 with guidance on staying focussed and me letting him have small breaks for fun along the way and we basically covered every year 4 decimal curriculum objective in that time - so I'm convinced that for maths it's a focus issue not an ability thing. Writing, I'm not so sure.

I'm looking into Edpsychs, as I think you're right @lastfiresocks even if there isn't an actual issue, understanding strengths and weaknesses would be helpful, there is not much choice near us, there is a psychology centre which do a 'full educational assessment' but the practising psychologist there is not an edpsyc - just a highly qualified psychologist - would that be the same as an Edpsych report? It feels like a minefield and we've already had a terrible experience with private healthcare for DH this year so I feel a bit tentative about private professional services!

Also, I've been thinking more about neurodiversity, he does have some sensory 'issues' he won't touch uncooked cheese because of the feel, cutting his nails leads to a 1 hour end of the world style upset (he lies in bed with his hands clenched in sobbing), and he won't do up his school trousers because he says they feel too tight, even though I buy age 10-11 to make them loose (he's tiny so 8-9 would be the 'right' size).

I did laugh at your first post as it's the exactly same things as my boy used to come out with so much so they could have been twins.

Writing don't stress over that. Get him to learn to type that's done.

Never trust a teacher they don't know the ins and outs. You will need an EP to run full tests and mummy always knows best 💪. My boy tricked teachers for a couple of years they thought I was crazy 🤣

Does he like rewards? Or are they too demanding.... for some children rewards don't work (ASD)

He might be refusing to give you the answer due to perfectionism and the anxiety of sense of fail of getting the wrong answer.

Also, sencos very limited knowledge.

If he's really struggling you can apply for an EHCP and you would get an EP for free if they agreed to access. Ipsea has a model letter for parents to fill out.

OT sensory test too - however if your doing it private for all the tests you will be looking around £3k

Adhd test - would you medicate or not? Qb test £600 no point if your not going to try meds.

Good luck those tests take years on nhs but private they are quicker ....

Is there a chance that what you are seeing here is actually an exceptionally gifted child not a bright one? He might just be inattentive because he’s bored out of his skull.

The challenge here might be to get him to see the point of the things that he currently doesn’t see the point of. So qualifications to get to university might be a start with the writing. AI isn’t going to be an option for those.

Thanks @Unfortunatelyagain how old is your DS? How is he doing and what sort of things worked for him?

That’s an interesting perspective on adhd assessment, definitely worth thinking about.

@RafaistheKingofClay possibly - but what sort of exceptionally gifted child can’t master there/their/they’re for instance? I think that’s the problem I have with school taking me seriously, I tell them I think there’s something complex going on and they just say he needs to master the basics. Meanwhile compared to the high achieving children he just looks increasingly behind, but he could probably out answer them verbally on most topics if you see what I mean.

It’s a shame I can’t afford a prep, I do think he’d do better in a smaller class where the school is much more able to get the best out of the children as teachers really just have to teach and not be social workers/dealing with behaviour etc.

Well he's not a well behaved child is he? You've just said he rarely gets made to do anything, and if he does he digs his heels in, ie, he won't do it.
Well, then he's a badly behaved child who you have pandered to to avoid confrontation, and now he is lacking jn resilience and determination as a result of this enabling environment.

You need to enforce boundaries and consequences with him, and make him understand that if you ask him to do something non negotiable, then he has to do it. End of.

So with my kids, some things they get a choice eg which music instrument, but some things they don't eg swimming lessons. I explain why - because being a strong swimmer could save your life.

If your line jn the sand and non negotiable is doing xyz learning tasks, then follow through with consequences. Eg no TV till homework is done. Say you can help him if he needs it, but he has to get it done.

Another line to use is "we do what we have to do first THEN what we want to do. That's life. Eg I HAVE to cook tea and put the washing on BEFORE I watch TV. End of.

Hopefully he will see that you are teaching him a valuable life skill of perseverance.

The thing he needs to understand is that as it stands all exams will be handwritten.

Actually by the time your DS sits his GCSE'S all his exams may not be handwritten. AQA are planning to test electronic exams next year in certain subjects and they are very keen to push electronic exams. They are also trialing AI marking this year, to see how well it does in relation to human marking.

Computer science though is a competive field and you really need top marks to do well as there is a lot of competition. If you can get him to understand that he will need good grades to work in the field he wants to, then it may encourage him.

That may be true, but is it really worth him avoiding learning this key skill on the gamble that it will be the case?
He WILL need to write anyway, because it's worth learning to do.

@wafflesmgee I don’t think I’ve been very clear - he is a well behaved child on the whole. He rarely gets MADE to do anything because he is so generally sweet and compliant. I probably only have to tell him off or lay the law down about once every 6 months (in contrast to his belligerent sibling who is told off and forced to do things probably 6 times a day at times!)

He digs his heels in on learning tasks, but I’ve been very conscious so far of not being too overbearing, and I think, having reflected on this thread that there is some fear of failure/embarrassment/etc which is why he’s very hard to motivate at home.

However I agree that we are at a stage now where I need to taking a more non negotiable approach. This mornings decimal chat was a big success, I let him chat through the problems to start off with for him to air his thoughts about -
what sort of juice the characters in the maths problem were drinking, and why they were at a party etc and let him have his chance for procrastination before we then did 15 minutes focused work.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case here, but you're absolutely right this can happen - I've seen it, and also seen teachers unable to distinguish the two. So a teacher one year will say "this child is gifted - I will find things to stretch him", whereas the teacher the next year will say "he is behind in most areas - I have seen no evidence of high ability" because they can't distinguish a child who is behind from one who is so far ahead that they have completely disengaged. So, for example, they will take away the children's encyclopaedias and chapter books and replace them with early readers with half a dozen words per page because - and I quote - "we wouldn't want him to bark at a page".

It is also possible to be exceptionally gifted, bored rigid AND have attention issues / neurodivergence. and for the boredom to exacerbate the attention issues. Such kids need advanced work and stimulation to help them counteract their attention difficulties (but they don't generally get it). What often happens is the the school will focus on remediating their weaker areas (writing, focusing etc) but such an approach is doomed and leaves the child in a catch-22 unless the level of work is raised to promote engagement.

Some thoughts:

It isn't unusual for some children to be extremely bright verbally and not be able to get stuff down on paper.

You can sit GCSEs with a laptop - my son (SpLD) did for all of his. His handwriting was appalling and the laptop was his normal way of working. I don't think that is possible for SATs but I could be wrong.

I can't tell from what you say whether your child is actually behind or not. You say he is behind in writing. What are his teachers saying? Is he hitting age related expectations?

Some of these children who are verbally very bright and with it are simply unable to get their thoughts down on paper, either using a laptop or handwriting. They do badly in secondary school for obvious reasons. You need to be able to plan and write a whole essay at GCSE level.

Some of these children who are verbally bright are able to get their thoughts down it's "just" a slow handwriting issue. These kids usually do ok, some schools will let them have a laptop, it's very dependent on the school.

It sounds like he is not able or not willing to do practice and is throwing a load of words at you to get you to back off so he doesn't have to do it.

That's ok IF he can pull it out of the bag when needed (maths?). But if not then he needs to do the practice.

So I would suggest that you either talk to his teacher or look out his reports. Is he actually behind in anything other than handwriting? If yes, you have a problem. If no, then start doing handwriting practice at home.

There are various books you can buy.

but what sort of exceptionally gifted child can’t master there/their/they’re for instance?

ahem ... mine. top scorer in the country / full marks in some (STEM) subjects, but dropped English like a hot potato and still can't be arsed to write legibly or spell carefully.

Some children don't need to write. They type, they have a scribe, voice activated documents. Some children writing is painful due to hyper mobility in their figures .... not every child needs to write essays. My child has not wrote for 2 yrs except in maths.

You need to find out what your child is interested in and motivate them that way especially if they are ND.

Being a dictator parent might not help a child especially if they are ND - working together having fun - you will get a better end goal 🤩 they need to know what is in for them. Also, it really depends on the teacher too and the style they are teaching them - you need the happy teachers out not the grumpy ones and he might be more motivated to work 👍

Maybe try describing qualifications and skills as 'currency' that will allow him to access particular careers and education choices.
If he's got quite high aspirations then the fact is he will need certain qualifications and skills to access them.
He might not believe he will need maths and English for example, but if he wants to go to university to study ANY subject he will need maths and English GCSEs.