Year 4 child not doing well at school - don't know how to help him/what to do.

[Spacecrispsnack]

I've name changed for this as the situation is quite identifying. DS is an enigma and I don’t know how to help him to get the best out of him. He is in some ways very intelligent and always has been – his ability to understand things and link concepts is very strong, and always has been – for instance when he was 8 months old I told him we were going outside soon and he crawled to get his hat and brought it to me. For things he’s interested in he’s able to understand adult level materials.

He is a good reader, but not interested in reading fiction or longer books in order – he likes dipping in and out of non fiction books he’s interested in, but that’s where the positivity ends.

Basically he says he finds school ‘so so boring’ and he doesn’t need to learn how to write as he is planning to use AI and grammerly when he’s an adult to get his thoughts down. He understands maths concepts but has no interest in practicing them as he says a calculator is a much more accurate tool so what is the point in risking making a mistake. I’ve tried so hard to explain that it’s good to aquire skills because you don’t know what you’ll have access to, but he is not interested. As a result he is really behind in writing (I would say his work looks like a typical year 2’s in both presentation and handwriting) and is not ‘behind’ in maths but is extremely inaccurate as he can’t be arsed to learn and apply things like number bonds or times tables. If I get him to practice his tables he won’t answer with the actual number, he insists on answering with an alternative sum – so if I say what’s 8x3 he’ll reply with 48 / 2, which is fine and a fun game – but it means that there are quite a few he’s not learning as he doesn’t have an alternative sum at his fingertips. However if I sit and make him focus he can manage anything out of the CGP book at his level, so I think the maths is just lack of application.

I realise in some ways this sounds like a stealth boast but it’s really not, I’m beginning to worry a lot about what will happen at high school, we only have one comprehensive he can go to – private is not an option. The local school is good if you are in the top set but below that the behaviour is just not good and he is also very easily influenced by the children who are funny and push boundaries. I'm fairly sure he is intelligent enough to be top set for things, but the way he's going he is not going to be able to demonstrate his ability well enough.

I don’t know what help to ask the school for – I’ve tried raising things so many times, but have been brushed off with boys just not liking writing, that he’ll develop in his own time etc. and I accept that some of this might be true, but I don’t want to let him down and then it be too late for him to catch up/make the most of his achievements. We tried a tutor but he just messed around and constantly distracted himself/the tutor with chats about things he wanted to talk about. I’ve wondered about an ed psych assessment but I don’t actually know what I’d be asking them to do, and I’m just worried that it’s my crappy parenting that’s caused this, but then I have an older child who isn’t like this and is generally focused and achieving their best at school.

If you’ve manged to get this far thank you and I’d be interested in any views even if they might not be what I want to hear.

I agree. There could be some overlap or none. And I think it’s also easy to see won’t because they don’t see the point as can’t.

Thought I’d throw the idea out there for the OP to think about because ND has been mentioned a lot but a couple of things the OP has said makes me think that there might be more than that going on if he is ND.

My 15-y-old son has dyspraxia which means his handwriting is rubbish but he is doing really well in school although he is a bit bored with maths. If you can find a way to help him with his work at home which is fun then great but he is only 8. He is at school for 6 hours a day. I don't think demanding he knuckle down and do more work at home is remotely reasonable. Yes, get an assessment if you can which might give you more insight into how to make learning easier. You might be better off encouraging him to do activities out of school (I'm a big fan of drama/youth theatre for building confidence). Absolutely, discuss what qualifications he might need for the career he's interested in to sow the seeds but what he really needs is a parent who will love and support him whatever not one who is constantly nagging him to do stuff he's not interested in. (I'm not saying you do this op but some of the advice on here is 100% not how I would encourage a potentially neurodiverse child aged 8 to develop a love of learning.)

I’m not an expert and I’ve not read everyone’s posts but he sounds like he could possibly be neurodivergent, possibly autistic. He has a different way of acquiring knowledge and skills and possibly therefore needs to be taught in a different way to engage him. An Ed psych assessment if you can get one would hopefully help with strategies and identifying any additional need/neurodivergence.

the way the world is going, and tests with it, is for everything to be online. I actually think nowadays, children should be taught touch typing in addition to handwriting because in their working life, they’re far more likely to be typing emails than writing letters. I teach a child with a vision impairment who types everything - all his work/tests etc are accessed digitally. If the EP does note a learning need for your son, perhaps the school will allow him to type and use a laptop/chrome book/ iPad or whatever to access and record work. Although it is important to have basic handwriting skills too.

This is all pointing to a gifted child OP. They are neurodiverse because they at the very top end of the intelligence chart. I’d recommend Brilliant IQ by Lyn Kendall, she’s an expert in gifted children and the challenges the child and the parents face. I’ve done some of her online zoom courses with DS when he was 13 & 14 and they were invaluable, invaluable for him to understand why he is as he is and invaluable to me in how to support him.

I should say my DS is gifted and also has ASD & sensory processing disorder so it’s entirely possible that there could be dyslexia/add/adhd as well as being gifted. These kids are known as twice exceptional (always disliked that term but there it is). Basically it means making sense of the world can be difficult for them growing up as some things come very easy, others very hard.

Also have a look at Potential Plus website.

I agree. You can be ‘intelligent’ in one way and not in another. There are many different types of intelligences.

The problem is that school only provides for one or two types of intelligences and doesn’t cater for the myriad ways that humans learn. It’s very one-dimensional. Our brains work in such different ways but we’re so conditioned to believe that the academic system is the optimal way.

I believe (ex primary teacher here) that school is the least best way to learn for most people. Not all square pegs fit round holes. Many children are the square peg and sadly for them the system expects them to change to fit it rather than the system adapting to the child.

To be honest some of his behaviour sounds quite obnoxious, and that he can’t be arsed because he thinks it’s beneath him. He’d be getting short shrift from me if he thinks AI is going to do everything for him - it’s also most likely to put knowledge workers like him (as I’m sure he fancies himself being)out of a job, as well!

Has he ever been in a situation where he really can’t do something, and is not cock of the walk?

He sounds very like my DD, who was diagnosed with ADHD and ASD at 7.

Teachers don't have the skills to diagnose neurodiversity and nor should they be trying to.

The main thing with assessments is to make sure they meet NICE guidelines and shop around. Join parent groups. Seek recommendations.

DD has really matured academically in year 6. I was in regular despair up till then!

I don't disagree with some of what you've written, but as fair warning to the OP and anyone else looking for an assessment, the person you mention is not a qualified educational or clinical psychologist and is not HCPC registered. She was a teacher and did a 9 month diploma in psychology. Having spoken to educational and clinical psychologists, she's minimally qualified and not their idea of an expert. If you look for any "Little Johnny has an IQ of 161 and is smarter than Stephen Hawking" article in the tabloid press, she and/or mensa will be there, soaking up the free publicity. The main test she uses (the SB-LM) was last updated in the 1970's and so is invalidated by the Flynn effect. It's largely untimed and won't give a breakdown of indices in processing speed or working memory (and therefore almost useless in identifying SpLD / DME). And she uses it in a non-standardised way by giving a cut-down version or administering it online. A good money-spinner, I'm sure, but concerns about the harm that might result from invalid scores and missed deficits don't seem to have crossed her mind. If she tried half that shit in the US where regulation of test versions is much tighter (they have to update to the newest version of a test within a year of it being released) she'd have been barred from practising.
If you're credulous / want a high number look no further. If you want a proper, modern test from someone fully trained, go to a qualified educational or clinical psychologist on the HCPC register.

He sounds like my brother who is incredibly able, but very arrogant. He has not done well in life because he refuses to do anything he does not want to.
He was a quiet boy and went along with most things. But if he did not want to do it, he refused and no one made him.
Learning to apply yourself is a bigger indicator of future success than raw ability.

@shockeditellyou not at all @shockeditellyou his writing and spelling looks like a 6 year olds, he can’t swim despite 3 years of lessons, and he struggles with quite a few fears - arachnophobia, the dark, raw cheese. He has also only in year 4 after a 3 year hiatus on the switch from nursery to school with Covid in the middle made some proper friends.

Do you want to return to your post a consider whether it’s an appropriate way to describe an 8 year old you’ve never met?

My 'gifted/asd/adhd' child is somewhat similar.
But can be extremely defiant only following her interests
She went like this
Nursery - speech ahead thousands of words by 2. But in trouble for flooding bathrooms etc. Read cvc words at 3
School- reception -- in trouble for issues with other kids. Could read chapter books by 5y0. But writing was backwards etc. Maths fine.
Y1 still in trouble. Maths not fine. Reading amazing
Y2 maths meeting. Writing improving
Y3/4 covid. Exceeding on ks2 spag sats and reading
Y4 all subjects meeting. Writing good.
Y5/6 not into exceeding but confusing why not as capable. Looking at books just doing 1 question in a whole lesson!
Y6 we did some catch up work for maths. And went from not finishing any papers to just about. Moved from meeting to exceeding.. But any errors on paoers are unforeced errors so still underperforming
Reading made no progress from y2 really.

I think probably slow processing and lack of competition/motiviation.
Until you have a dc you dont realise how improtant kids compliance and self motivation matters. My other dc at least does all the maths work even though is again underperforming

How did he do on ks1 sats? As they will be used as a basis of how he should do in y6.

@GelbertG KS1 sats were ‘working towards’ for writing, ‘meeting’ for maths (although I considered this a fairly poor result as he started reception being able to do everything on the curriculum to year 1 which was corroborated by his early years setting and exceeding for reading (got full marks). So a proper mixed bag!

I’ve met a few obnoxious y4 boys so it doesn’t strike me as unreasonable that one on the internet might also be obnoxious, tbh.

I would try and concentrate on getting him to understand that sometimes he just has to do something (such as answer a question with a straight answer, and that there’s a time and a place for a cutesy answer) before much else.

This is quite mixed and given his reading is good the writing is worrying

In the circumstances an assessment with an educational psychologist would probably be a good idea as they can do a lot of detailed assessments of very specific cognitive and other tasks and tell you in great detail what your son is good at and what he struggles with.

You can then target your extra work of interventions at overcoming his specific barriers.

And I should say - I’m coming from the place of having a y4 boy who is not above being a smart Alec and thinks if he’s not interested in something, he doesn’t have to do it…

Bear with me here @Spacecrispsnack but is he particularly bendy? How does he prefer to sit?
Odd questions I know but maybe relevant

I’d say he’s quite an ‘active’ sitter @AuDHD4Me will often be crouching on a chair instead of sitting, or if he’s in a computer chair he’ll have a leg draped over an arm of it. I’ll have to watch him more closely!

What you have said about the handwriting stuck out to me

Have you ever heard of dysgraphia?

My son is behind with his writing, he is great at maths but used to mess about at school frequently and was labelled a naughty boy

Turns out he has astigmatisms in both eyes, dyslexia, dyspraxia, adhd and we are in the process of getting him referred for a dysgraphia assessment

Because my son struggled with his eyesight and getting his hands to do what his brain told them, he just seemed to give up and just mess about instead. Now hes receiving support he is literally like a changed boy,

I feel awful for him I didnt know sooner, hes only 7 so it's still early days but I still feel bad he struggled for so long and I just thought he was behaving badly when really he needed proper support

@IWantOut29 that is interesting. I figured out eventually that DD had lingering issues following a squint operation as a reception child that definitely weren't helping with reading. Often children can't tell us what the problem is, because it is their norm.

I figured out the ADHD observing DD closely trying and failing to learn over video during the first lockdown. It was rather lucky in a way -- I never would have got to observe her in the classroom like that.

OP, I meant to recommend a book yesterday: Smart But Scattered. I found it useful.

Get him doing some harder maths - a bit of algebra or geometry. 3x8 by itself is boring and pointless, but he'll be able to multiply out brackets much more quickly if his times tables are secure, for example.

There's also a lot of value in introducing some challenging calculator work, ie longer problem solving questions, if he's interested in that. For example, I challenged my year 6 boy to figure out which of our cars would be cheaper to take on holiday - the only information I gave him was how much we each spend on petrol per week, and the postcode of each of our workplaces ao he could work out the weekly mileage (this is not a stealth boast - he couldn't do it by himself! But it was an interesting and useful problem, and it really highlighted that the calculator can't just "do it for you")

It's all very well him thinking that he can always rely on a calculator, but a calculator can't solve problems - it's only as clever as the person operating it! And of course numbers churned out by a calculator always need a quick commonsense check, which is a sneaky way of practising the "boring" number work.

Reason I ask is that my AuDHD son is the same. He's hyper mobile and has pain while writing.
Since we got school to allow him to use a laptop, he is now flying in English.
He didn't tell us he had pain though, we had to ask him the question directly. He never would've thought to tell us as he thought everyone was like that.
I feel your pain with the homework questions though. This is very familiar and we often have to talk about the background of the people mentioned in the maths problems in minute detail.

Have you tried game learning? My ds1 really cracked times tables with tt rockstars. The way school did thsm wiyh rote learning wasn't going in, but he loves computer games and trying to beat his top score. He can now do all of the times tables faster than I can read them.

Also, do check for hypermobility and ask him if it hurts to write. The swimming thing is interesting, as motor skills start at the centre and ability moves outwards. So just working on hand writing often isn't enough if the body isn't ready for hand motor skills yet.