DD depressed she didn't get into Cambridge

[alannacarter]

Hi All,

Need some advice here please. My daughter applied to do Maths at Cambridge this year but got rejected after interview. She did a summer internship at St John's College and was hopeful she would have a chance but is now beyond distraught at the outcome. She had the results since Jan/Feb I think and has been really down since. She now believes people need to be geniuses to get in and that she is just not good enough for Maths. She got an offer from Warwick but is super high at AAA* and offers from Manchester and Liverpool. She didn't go to good schools and we unfortunately didn't know better at the time. Still she works super hard and is predicted good results, just don't know if enough for Warwick, fingers crossed. I don't know if this is a teenager thing but how can I get Cambridge out of her head? She just thinks she is not good enough in general. Thank you.

Way more people are "good enough" for Cambridge & Oxford than there are places each year. Across the two universities there are a few hundred places (I don't know the exact number but would guess less than 500) and a few thousand A-Level candidates meet the required standard. There are always huge numbers who are good enough but don't get in, and they go to Warwick ot any of a dozen other excellent universities and quite a lot of them then end up doing a postgraduate degree at Oxford or Cambridge afterwards. Your undergraduate university isn't a definition of how good at maths you are and if you are a serious mathematician the outcomes in 10 years time will be broadly similar for those postgrad or postdocs who started in Cambridge vs those who started elsewhere.

Rejection hurts, but it's a good life experience. I had my heart set on St Andrews and when I didn't get an offer I thought life was over. But I got all my other offers, and went to my top choice and had the best three years of my life.
My DB is incredibly gifted at maths, and won a place at Cambridge. He, much to everyone's distress and consternation, declined Cambridge's offer and went to a famous Cambridge reject university. He achieved top student in Maths three years running. He doesn't regret his choice at all, he said he preferred being amongst the best in his year than possibly at the bottom, and he also had a vibrant life alongside his studies. There are a lot of different ways to do university is what I'm saying, I guess.
Let her lick her wounds, give her some sympathy, and then tell her to brush herself down and get on with the hand life has dealt her. She will mostly have a fabulous time wherever she goes, and if she's smart and dedicated she will come put with an excellent degree.

The scholarship system in US is very different. They award bursaries for example on salaries that are considered relatively well off here!
It's absolutely worth her looking into. My best friend at school got a unconditional offer from Princeton and subsidised fees! She had a lot better 6th form than the rest of us lol

She can always go to Cambridge for post-grad if she gets a First in her degree. Warwick is amazing for Maths.

@alannacarter - look on Student Room for the WP August Pool. My question was whether she qualifies for any of the Widening Participation criteria because you hinted she didn’t go to good schools. Obviously I have no idea if she does meet any of those criteria or not. It is to encourage those from more challenging backgrounds/schools/poorer areas/FSM at any point etc. but can be quite wide depending on postcode.

Here is a quote I found on Student Room for you from what appears to be a College Rep:
“Just to clarify, the Summer Pool and August Reconsideration Pool are slightly different. The Summer Pool is for offer holderswho have not met the conditions set for them, whereas the August Reconsideration Pool is for applicants who have beenrejected in January but meet certain widening participation criteria and go on to meet or exceed the typical offer for their course.You're not automatically entered in the August Reconsideration Pool - you have to put yourself forward in August if you areeligible and get the grades.

Crucially, the August Reconsideration Pool is what used to be called Adjustment. Any statistics you find for Adjustment atCambridge are likely to be more applicable to your situation than statistics about the Summer Pool. Hope this helps!”

For what it's worth, DNephew who got a 1st in an arts subject at Oxbridge really wasn't impressed with their teaching methods. They wanted him to stay for a postgrad degree but he preferred St Andrew's, and never regretted that choice.

@alannacarter - I think check with Admissions because the WP August pool has only been running for a few years I think. For Warwick, she will be doing STEP anyway. So she can have Warwick 1st choice, insurance offer and still enter the Cambridge August pool WP pool if she qualifies on WP/Grades/STEP. Chances may be slim but you never know. Warwick is really good for Maths in any event and personally I would be very happy with that. Your DD sounds fantastic.

Also, try to get her to think of outcomes of her degree eg what does she want to do afterwards? I'm sure any goals will still be possible

In terms of career it won’t matter too much where she does Maths as long as it’s a decent enough uni.

I did maths and work as an actuary and loads of my colleagues did maths at Oxbridge but they’re in exactly the same roles as me.

Although it’s hard now, the bigger picture is that it really doesn’t matter, she sounds bright and it’s likely she’ll end up at a uni with a good reputation which from a career point of view is enough.

I also frequently interview for graduate roles and we don’t pay any attention to university. They’ve already had to do rigorous online tests to get to the interview and shown the required competencies etc.

Playing an instrument gives you UCAS points so it does matter. Having other interest helps in the interviews.

Not really.
Whilst things like music and dance exams are on the national qualifications framework and do attract UCAS points they are rarely useful unless directly relevant to the course applied for. For a start, lots of Universities, particularly the most sought after ones, don't make points based offers anyway, and even those that do often specify where they can come from eg my son had a points based offer for engineering which specified the points must be from a maximum of 4 academic qualifications which must include A level maths. They weren't interested in his grade 8 piano points.

Cambridge have a specific list per subject suggesting supracurriculars that may help, for Maths the International Maths Olympiad would always be a great one. If a very gifted musical mathematician with all sorts of Bach maths theories shows up at interview, I am sure they would love it. There is a link between maths and music so this is the kind of thing where a music extracurricular could tie in.

DD was also rejected for Cambridge - different subject but still a blow.

All we can do is encourage them to be positive about the choice they now make - I've been to a couple of offer holder open days with her and we've made them fun days out.

Key thing is that everyone enjoys uni and they'll be ok wherever they go. Although I think secretly she's hoping she does get the 3 A *s and can then feel smug!!

FWIW she has grade 8 flute - none of her offers are points offers so completely irrelevant....

DS2 didn't get into Cambridge. It really stung at the time as DS1 was at Oxford. He went to a very good Russell Group instead. He was relieved in the end. The workload was way more manageable and he met lots of lovely people.

Oxbridge is full of brilliant minds - but so are the other top unis. Oxbridge don't even win Uni Challenge these days and there seems to be zero difference in the quality of graduate employment or post-grad studies between DS1s Oxford mates and DS2s RG mates. Some of DS2s friends ended up doing MAs at Cambridge - and several of DS1s Oxford mates are doing bar work and tutoring while they figure out what to do next.

Playing an instrument gives you UCAS points so it does matter. Having other interest helps in the interviews

Oxbridge do not offer based on UCAS points; they require specified grades often with an A* in particular subjects. Interests are only relevant (to them at least) to the extent that they have some bearing on the subject you are applying for. Eg a classics applicant who has built and learned to play some ancient instrument could well end up discussing that in the interview but no one cares if you have grade 8 piano and are applying for law.

This thread is about Cambridge and whilst they don't allow people in on UCAS points either it helps to distinguish a person from every other applicant.

This thread started off being about Cambridge maths, and for maths they are not interested in the extracurriculars - they say so at the open days. The interviews are purely maths. The way that Cambridge maths distinguishes between lots of applicants with Astars is to set extra exams (STEP) and require grades in those. (In 2020, STEP exams went ahead when nothing else did, because they make twice as many offers as places, and rely on STEP to make the final decision.)

At the upper end of university offers, I don't think we've seen a single university offering on UCAS points - it's grades, and principally the maths/Fmaths ones.

“Super-curricular activities are not mandatory. However, they can help you make a competitive application, and prepare you for a challenging academic environment, so we strongly recommend them. Super-curricular participation can enhance your personal statement, give you greater confidence in your subject choice, show that you are serious about your area of study, and give you a wealth of ideas to draw upon in discussions if you’re invited to interview.”

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/super-curricular_suggestions_2.pdf#page29

It is a given that a candidate needs A stars in Maths and Further Maths and pass STEP, that is assumed. All we are saying is that the supras can set you apart. You don’t need to do it but if you have won the International Maths Olympiad or written your own paper on Bach and Maths, then clearly you have done more than another candidate with the same grades and same STEP score. That is all anyone is saying.

To clarify: super curricular is very different from extra curricular.

TeenDivided is right - there's a difference between supercurricular stuff and extracurricular. Cambridge maths will not be interested in your musical instrument or sports prowess. They will definitely be interested in you having been to an International Maths Olympiad, or getting as far as the final selection stages for that - in the past it has been known for colleges to make very low offers to team members, but in practice anyone who can get to an IMO will ace STEP anyway.

A friend of ours with experience of both Cambridge and Oxford maths practically insisted on talking to DS (and us) prior to him deciding which to apply to. He considered that, to have a good experience at Cambridge, you probably should be "top 50" in maths, but would nowadays get a similar syllabus and a better experience at Oxford. DS went ahead and applied to Cambridge ...

But he really felt the stress of the STEP requirement, although he did make his offer comfortably in the end.

DS is actually your gifted maths/music stereotype combo (he knew and understood the ratios of the harmonic series almost instinctively); but his interviews were maths all the way, nothing else in them.

Your daughter has done excellently to have a Warwick offer, I've only heard good things about maths there. Should she get A level results/STEP results that lead her to consider a reapplication to Cambridge, she should look carefully at the college websites. I'm sure I remember at least one that, unusually, made a positive comment regarding gap years for maths students, so they might be a better choice under that scenario, or at least one to ask for advice.

Very best wishes for her over the next few months.

As I mentioned upthread, there are seven US universities that offer need blind admission plus financial aid to international undergrad applicants. There are others that offer need aware admission plus financial aid.

The seven are - Harvard, Amherst, Bowdoin, Dartmouth, MIT, Princeton, and Yale.

Financial aid covers tuition, room and board, and certain incidentals.

“To clarify: super curricular is very different from extra curricular.”

Yes, of course. But super-curricular means showing your extensive maths passion more widely and into the real world. So if a candidate has an extensive extracurricular interest like music, fencing or rowing etc, they may be able to take that and turn it into a super-curricular if they can find a maths angle to it. You can find a maths angle to many things including buildings,art, computing etc. Whether they will ask you at interview briefly about it or not is another matter.
Tutors are looking for exciting mathematical brains that will flourish in the environment. If you are passionate about your super-curricular surely that is never going to be a bad thing?

“To clarify: super curricular is very different from extra curricular.”

Yes, of course. But super-curricular means showing your extensive maths passion more widely and into the real world. So if a candidate has an extensive extracurricular interest like music, fencing or rowing etc, they may be able to take that and turn it into a super-curricular if they can find a maths angle to it. You can find a maths angle to many things including buildings,art, computing etc. Whether they will ask you at interview briefly about it or not is another matter.
Tutors are looking for exciting mathematical brains that will flourish in the environment. If you are passionate about your super-curricular surely that is never going to be a bad thing?

They are not allowed to focus too much on”extra curricular” because they tend to be expensive hobbies limited to families with cash. And they are trying to find mathematical brains regardless of parental income and background. But if you do have that background and you are passionate and find a mathematical angle then surely there is no harm?

And frankly if you have gone to eg an expensive private school then I would assume they would expect you to have done the Olympiads if you were in top maths set anyway and most are entered anyway.

If she is really set on Cambridge and is very good at maths then the obvious alternative is to reapply post A level for another subject that requires a lot of maths. Engineering is the obvious choice but natural sciences also possible.