DD depressed she didn't get into Cambridge

[alannacarter]

Hi All,

Need some advice here please. My daughter applied to do Maths at Cambridge this year but got rejected after interview. She did a summer internship at St John's College and was hopeful she would have a chance but is now beyond distraught at the outcome. She had the results since Jan/Feb I think and has been really down since. She now believes people need to be geniuses to get in and that she is just not good enough for Maths. She got an offer from Warwick but is super high at AAA* and offers from Manchester and Liverpool. She didn't go to good schools and we unfortunately didn't know better at the time. Still she works super hard and is predicted good results, just don't know if enough for Warwick, fingers crossed. I don't know if this is a teenager thing but how can I get Cambridge out of her head? She just thinks she is not good enough in general. Thank you.

Just to add something into the mix for her.

My son was also a Cambridge 'reject' for Maths got 2A Stars in maths and further maths and an A in Physics and he got a place at Durham. He was fixed at this point on doing a Maths degree. He loved Durham by the way but again there are a lot of Oxbridge 'rejects'.

He found the maths degree quite challenging and so much more work than other subjects like economics, business, etc, He lived with other students who didn't had the work levels he had and bitterly rejects taking maths as a degree choice as he believes she would have got a higher degree result in another subject.

This all of course depends on what her future ambitions are and if a maths degree is essential.

My son now works as graduate in an investment bank and of the 20 graduates on the program only 2 of them have maths degrees the others are from good universities across a range of subjects with a minimum 2.1.
It would appear from the experience he had applying for a lot of graduate roles that sometimes the uni and the grade are, if not more important than the subject

Just some food for thought!!

My DD got turned down for Cambridge - Natural Sciences - disappointing at the time especially as two of her best friends got in. She went to Manchester and has had a brilliant time. When she visited her friends in Cambridge she realised just how very small the city is compared to a vibrant city like Manchester. I was slightly glad she didn't get into Cambridge because I think the very short terms and very high standards would have put unhealthy psychological pressure on her. She did have some issues with anxiety related to academic performance at Manchester but got loads of support and is heading for a 1st in her final year. Dealing with set backs can help develop resilience and maybe you can find some resources to help your daughter with this.

From my experience - some are very normal, some are extremely eccentric. It was about 50:50 when I was there. You get one or two super geniuses too.

OP - oxbridge has very limited numbers. The total intake for maths per year can be likened to filling up a couple of primary school classes, if that. And they’re drawing from the top 5 or so in the top maths sets across the entire country. She got herself into the selection group, but after that it’s a crapshoot.

Warwick is excellent. Someone I knew who went there is now at NASA. Tell her to focus on getting those grades (and be ready to call them on results day to try and keep the place anyway if she misses one).

There is a massive drop out rate for first year mathmos at Cambridge. I think there were 6 in my college and lost 3 by the end of first year, a combination of drop outs and failing the first year exams. It's brutal. Just something to think about as a positive of not going!

My year had one who transferred over to natsci in order to become an astrophysicist.

We had another who didn’t do much work after year 1 and ended up with a third (he was told not to ask for a reference).

out of 4

I think to do a maths degree at any of those universities should would have great prospects.
But surely if you want to do maths and love maths enough to do it as your entire degree you should expect to get A* at A-level anyway or the degree would be too tough.

3x A Stars with one in Further Maths is the minimum requirement to do Maths at Cambridge and unfortunately this is often not enough. It is important to have extracurricular things that will distinguish you from the pack such as DofE, excelling in an instrument or particular sport.
Then there are things like the GEEMA scheme which does make you wonder about diversity quotas though no university will openly admit to accepting applicants on this basis... being illegal and all.

The extra curriculars like music, sports do not matter at all. Oxbridge are looking for supra curricular interest - this is different to extra curricular.

As others have said, Cambridge maths is an extreme environment - possibly the most extreme of any undergraduate course in the UK. Not for the fainthearted, and not great for mental health.
I think there is a lot to be said for going to somewhere in the next tier down (basically, Oxford, Imperial or Warwick), which are by comparison normal. Interestingly, career prospects are by some measures better at these.
Cambridge Uni controls the grade boundaries for STEP. You typically need 1's in STEP 2 and 3 as part of the offer. Cambridge typically over-offer by slightly more than a factor of 2. So if there are 250 places in the maths course, they'll offer between 500 and 600. They then look at the distribution of raw marks in STEP 2 and 3 and set the threshold for a 1 so that they just fill their course. This means every year there are close to 300 kids who get their A-stars at A level but miss their STEP offer and end up at their insurance choice (usually one of imperial, warwick, durham or UCL).
Someone who struggled at interview is - statistically - unlikely to get 1 or above in STEP, so it is almost kinder to be let down at this stage than wait and be gutted in August.
One possibility is to take STEP as well as A-levels and if the A-stars and grade 1 or S materialise, take a year out and apply again. They are not super-keen on gap years for maths though.

My daughter was rejected from Cambridge, she went to York and is having the time of her life now. Zero regrets now she is there, but the initial rejection is hard to take.
I told my dd that life takes you where you are meant to go, and she knows that now she had made amazing friends and is living her dream years.

She can always do a postgrad at Cambridge, or Harvard or anywhere she wants. She needs a new life goal to set her eyes on. Tell her it will be easier to get a first at Warwick and she will have a better social life (no idea if this is true 🤣). And then a first class degree will open all sorts of doors.

Adjustment doesn’t exist anymore

Thing is everyone who applies to do maths at Cambridge is brilliant at maths and probably one of the best in their school. And they can’t all get in. It’s no reflection on her. They are all good. I reckon once she starts her course at Warwick or anywhere else it will be old news.

Unfortunately, the general Adjustment process, which only ran for a few years and allowed those who had got better than expected exam results to investigate 'trading up' without giving up their existing plce, is no longer running. If tou do better than expected now, and want to go somewhere other than your existing Firm, you have to release yourself into Clearing via UCAS.

Also, the Cambridge version was / is something different, only available to those who have already been through the Cambridge assessment process, but not been offered a place, and also meet at least 3 of the 5 widening participation criteria.

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/after/reconsideration-eligibility

A few years ago, I sat next to an Oxford tutor at a Christmas dinner. She said that that day, she had interviewed (something like) 17 sixth formers and she had 8 places for her subject. She said it was really hard - she said any of them would have been completely fine and it was difficult to choose between them. She didn’t explicitly say that she was having to split hairs to find reasons to choose one student over another, but that was very much the impression I got.

If your DD was one of “the 9 who didn’t get in”, it honestly isn’t a reflection on her. Frankly, the interviewers are human, albeit humans who are trying to be as professional as possible. It might have been that the interviewer was tired or hungry. If your DD got an interview, she was probably good enough. I appreciate that that may not actually make her feel better. I’m sorry that things are feeling tough for her right now.

I was much like your daughter, albeit my nemesis was Oxford!

I had perfect grades (and by the end of my A2 levels, my degree subject was 586/600), Top 5 mark in the country, AEA etc

I was depressed. You can infer from some of my diction here that I'm not truly over it (and it's 19 years since my A Levels!). It just takes time. After my first year of university, I had largely snapped out of it. The best advice my dad gave me was:

"It was personal."

Meaning: the don that interviewed me just didn't like my face. It wasn't about my intellect or passion for the subject. He probably just didn't want to see my face every week for 3 years. So, really, it was personal to the don; not your daughter. There's nothing wrong or reject about her.

Oh, and in my final year at the prestigious university I accepted (I had 5 offers), I had my catharsis by writing a term paper refuting everything said don had written on a particular bit of the Romantics!

I graduated with a First. I found it a cake walk.

She will be just fine.

Oxbridge isn't the be all.

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/after/apply-for-reconsideration

Would she be eligible for this?

In other words OP, if she gets the required grades for Warwick and is in a state school and has the right STEP results, she can hopefully join the Cambridge August pool (make a clear note of the dates etc as per the link). That should keep her motivated to work hard to get the right results.

There is no such thing as being good enough or not. If you get through to interview, you are good enough. The process is a lottery and down to performance on the day at interview compared to whatever candidate was there too and how they explained themselves in interview solving a complex maths problem etc. She may just have been shy etc compared to someone else. Many mathematicians are better on paper anyway.

If she is passionate about Maths she needs to focus on that and her A levels. All else will follow. For Maths, I would not take a gap year. If she ends up doing it to post grad level she can go later anyway.

If she got as far as the interview, she definitely is super intelligent and extremely capable in maths. It is a crapshoot.

If she achieves her predicted grades, she might have a chance to get into an American university for maths, but she's too late to get the application process rolling for the 2024-25 academic year.

If she wanted to take a gap year, prepare herself academically to do the necessary ACT /SAT exams, then do all the rest of the application process (College Board/ common app) and sort out a financial aid application for international students, she might have a chance of admission to MIT, Harvard, Amherst, Bowdoin, Dartmouth, Princeton, or Yale.

These colleges are "need blind", meaning all international applicants have an equal chance of acceptance, based on grades and whatever other criteria the admissions committees prioritise (extra and supra curricular activities might be important) and without reference to financial need (i.e. "[financial] need aware", which means colleges prefer international applicants who will be paying the full whack).

Obviously, the need blind colleges can be super selective, and "need aware" doesn't mean she wouldn't be accepted or that she wouldn't be offered financial aid.

Financial aid can be very generous at nominally very expensive American universities. A growing number of British students are choosing this option.

Warwick is really good for maths - and maybe a better experience because the absolute geniuses have gone to Cambridge, and the extremely-good-but-not-necessarily-genius mathematicians can flourish. Not getting into Cambridge for maths does not mean you're a good mathematician - hopefully we have more than 250 good mathematicians a year across the country!

In some ways, not having a Cambridge offer makes life simpler: she can concentrate on the A-level grades without having to worry about STEP (remember that they make about twice as many offers as places, so those who got offers are only halfway there). DD (who does have a Cambridge offer) liked Warwick, but daren't have it as her insurance offer, and of course there's a 50% chance she doesn't make it into Cambridge.

I've always pitied Oxbridge rejects. To be so close and then fail must be hard. It's one of those things that can gnaw away at you for the rest of your life. She needs to deal with it now and let it go.

Oh OP, your post has made it all come flooding back. Cambridge reject here (though not for maths - and incidentally rejected by Warwick too!) many, many years ago and as a previous poster has put it, a first experience of real world rejection having been an academic high flyer. I won’t lie, it sent me into a bit of a spiral that culminated in me almost sabotaging my degree elsewhere - scraped a 2.1 by the skin of my teeth. It’s great that she has other offers to focus on but I totally get the hurt she’s feeling!

Warwick is better for maths than Cambridge. I went to Cambridge but was asked for higher grades for Warwick. Is she eligible for a contextual offer?

Being the Mum of a DS who has dropped out of his university maths degree in his third year due to severe stress I'd really encourage any students to focus on being somewhere that nurtures not hothouses them. Maths is a very difficult degree.