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Original poster

Private Vs State school

261 replies

Ilikepinacoladass · 04/12/2023 19:15

I know this is a controversial subject. But genuinely trying to decide if private is worth it.

I see loads of comments saying things like I didn't send mine to private because I went to a comp and was at the same uni as loads of privately educated people and got same results etc.

But surely the GCSE / A-level results speak for themselves? Lots from the comps won't have even made it to uni whereas maybe they would have if they'd gone to a private school?

A-level results from 2023
56.5% got A/A* - local private school
39% got A/A* - local grammar school
20% got A/A* - local state school

I don't want to waste money, but I do want the best for my child (as we all do!) and trying to decide if having more local friends / a free education / short walk to school etc (state school) would be worth the potential loss in opportunities a private school would offer.

OP posts:
bogoffeternal · 05/12/2023 09:00

Private school parents are also tax payers - what's your point? Should you also get free prescriptions? Subsidised housing? Insulation grants? Warm home discounts? Not if you can afford them yourself. Why is education different?

The NHS is not like education, your contributions are more equivalent to insurance payments as some need a lot while others may never use it. Education is fixed and the need is similar across the population.

Don't understand the railways reference - these are neither free nor essential.

Barbadossunset · 05/12/2023 09:15

I certainly wouldn't want to send DC to a school which was regularly weeding out multiple kids each year though - and I'd like to think there'd be enough of a hoohaa made about it that the school would get a bad rep amongst parents.

I’ve never heard of children being weeded out each year. Maybe miggymoggymoo could name these schools?
Most private schools need all the fees they can get.

Sparehair · 05/12/2023 09:18

Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 08:58

I think the same goes on it all schools, if students are not engaging properly with the education provided eventually they get asked to leave. It certainly happened in my grammar school. And people get asked not to sit certain GCSEs if they will clearly flunk them. That's not exclusive to private schools.

I certainly wouldn't want to send DC to a school which was regularly weeding out multiple kids each year though - and I'd like to think there'd be enough of a hoohaa made about it that the school would get a bad rep amongst parents!

Totally normal not to let people stay on for sixth form if they don't get the GCSE grades though.

Show quote history

This definitely happens but schools are fairly transparent about it- my dc’s school requires a 7 at GCSE for A level subjects and you know that when you sign up so no point in crying about it later. The logic is that they can teach the curriculum at a fast pace and have time for supplementary projects/ learning/ trips. There is a fair bit of movement at sixth form round here ( within private/ state and also between them in both directions) so dc tend to easily find somewhere that suits them for A level. I did look at one school which is pretty notorious for managing out and decided it wasn’t for us ( and tbh unlikely dc would have been accepted).

This all comes down to finding a school that works for your dc. It’s also one of the dangers of aggressively tutoring to scrape a dc into a more academic school than maybe they’re naturally suited to.

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 09:41

bogoffeternal · 05/12/2023 09:00

Private school parents are also tax payers - what's your point? Should you also get free prescriptions? Subsidised housing? Insulation grants? Warm home discounts? Not if you can afford them yourself. Why is education different?

The NHS is not like education, your contributions are more equivalent to insurance payments as some need a lot while others may never use it. Education is fixed and the need is similar across the population.

Don't understand the railways reference - these are neither free nor essential.

Tax payers fund most of the running costs of the railways (network rail).

Anyway, very grateful that I can afford private school but I feel under no obligation to use it and wouldn't feel guilty not using it.

OP posts:
twdad · 05/12/2023 09:50

Also worth adding that if you want to strictly compare results between secondary schools, GCSEs are a far better indicator than A levels. Many students join a particular school just for the A levels and their results are a reflection of their previous education really. What are the GCSE results at those 3 schools you mentioned?

TheaBrandt · 05/12/2023 10:09

Firms are now falling over themselves to do away with the old boy network thing. In Dh firm it’s strictly forbidden blind cvs etc.

Dd2 wants to move to private as the uniforms are nicer and if you are down the nurse gives you hot chocolate and sympathy at her state school you get told to buck up 😀

HarryOHayandBettyOBarley · 05/12/2023 10:14

Summermeadowflowers · 04/12/2023 19:34

A line that’s often trotted out is that bright children will do well anywhere.

I don’t think this is quite true. What’s more accurate is that bright children will
pass anywhere. They may get 4s and 5s and a handful of 6/7s at an okay school but they could have been 7/8s at a great school.

There are some children who just have a god given gift and are more intelligent than their teachers but they are few and far between. I don’t like the fact money buys a good education but I don’t dislike it enough to sacrifice my children’s chances.

This.

DC1 is bright and would do pretty well in any school but may coast along. . DC2 isn’t academic so private will bring out the best in an otherwise average student.

twistyizzy · 05/12/2023 10:14

@TheaBrandt have to laugh at this, the best thing about school according to DD is mid-morning tea/coffee/hot chocolate and selection of cakes 😄.

twdad · 05/12/2023 10:15

Additionally, purely on the subject of costs, make sure you have considered it carefully. Our DD has spent 8 years (kindergarten, reception, Y1-Y6) at a local private prep and she had a wonderful time there, no regrets. They prepared her well and she is now moving to a great local grammar school.

When we were looking at private secondary schools and making projections of how much would next 7 years cost us, we arived at around £400k-£500k. Take into account inflation, extras, perhaps additional 20% VAT if the next government goes ahead with it. Very few people would consider that pocket money.

Then consider something called an "opportunity cost". If you spend £400k-£500k on school fees, is there a good free alternative and can you then instead spend the same amount on enriching your DCs life in other ways?

If you have more than 1 child, consider most likely multiplying these costs as you probably want to give the same to all your children.

KovskyMinsky · 05/12/2023 10:31

OP, I nc’ed. Academic from a highly selective university. We are much more impressed when we see someone from a state school achieving high grades than private. Because private are selective - and even if that selection has happened at 3 years old it makes a big difference. Also because parents are more affluent which is correlated with outcomes. It is more about what you do with your children that matters.

If you spend time tutoring your children, have a pleasant home environment, expectations are high, friends are from similar homes, these usually are the biggest achievement factors.

You said: "I still think there must be a section of students that would have achieved better results if they had the opportunity to go to private Vs comp. "

Ime, these would be very few, to the point of making this a negligible argument.

Where it would make a real difference is when the area you live in is very deprived, your home environment is not conducive to learning. Is it so? If not, negligible.

"And the difference in results isn't all down to the fact that grammar / private schools are selective. "

It mostly is considering the other factors I mentioned above.

Even class size is debatable. Some children thrive in bigger classes, as there may be more opportunities to “find your clan” compared to a small cohort. Happiness is an important factor affecting outcomes.

I send mine to state and offer extracurricular activities outside the school. I do not live in a deprived area.

Hope this helps.

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 10:37

KovskyMinsky · 05/12/2023 10:31

OP, I nc’ed. Academic from a highly selective university. We are much more impressed when we see someone from a state school achieving high grades than private. Because private are selective - and even if that selection has happened at 3 years old it makes a big difference. Also because parents are more affluent which is correlated with outcomes. It is more about what you do with your children that matters.

If you spend time tutoring your children, have a pleasant home environment, expectations are high, friends are from similar homes, these usually are the biggest achievement factors.

You said: "I still think there must be a section of students that would have achieved better results if they had the opportunity to go to private Vs comp. "

Ime, these would be very few, to the point of making this a negligible argument.

Where it would make a real difference is when the area you live in is very deprived, your home environment is not conducive to learning. Is it so? If not, negligible.

"And the difference in results isn't all down to the fact that grammar / private schools are selective. "

It mostly is considering the other factors I mentioned above.

Even class size is debatable. Some children thrive in bigger classes, as there may be more opportunities to “find your clan” compared to a small cohort. Happiness is an important factor affecting outcomes.

I send mine to state and offer extracurricular activities outside the school. I do not live in a deprived area.

Hope this helps.

Grammar are selective too?

Fair play to someone who achieves good grades at a state (or even more so someone from deprived background), but think it's unfair to favour them for jobs etc purely because they've done it despite difficult circumstances? Interesting that is happening though.

OP posts:
twistyizzy · 05/12/2023 10:37

@KovskyMinsky yet so many state school teachers post on this site that all they do all day is crowd control rather than teach. Sorry but even the brightest child will not learn as well in an environment where there is constant disruption and where the teacher is spending the majority of the lesson managing disruptive behaviour. It all comes down to the intake of your state school.
Also many wealthy parents choose to send their DC to state school so you being more impressed with high grades from a state school is laughable considering grammar schools are also state schools. Many grammars are more selective than private schools.

Miaow1234 · 05/12/2023 10:39

My daughter started year 7 in a state school and it caused her severe anxiety and she ended up being barely at school. We have just moved her to a small independent school and she is a completely different child. My view is if they are happy then they will excel as they should. The independent school rules are so different from the draconian attitudes in many secondary schools.

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 10:42

twdad · 05/12/2023 09:50

Also worth adding that if you want to strictly compare results between secondary schools, GCSEs are a far better indicator than A levels. Many students join a particular school just for the A levels and their results are a reflection of their previous education really. What are the GCSE results at those 3 schools you mentioned?

Similar story:

9-7s

29% comp
79% private
65% grammar

OP posts:
twistyizzy · 05/12/2023 10:44

@Miaow1234 definitely agree with this. Privates have the time and money to individualise everything for the DC..

Thisistyresome · 05/12/2023 10:46

The best bang for your buck is state but using the money you would spend on private for tutoring.

It is a bit of a difficult one though as it is intensive for your kid. Private schools are not a magic bullet that makes kids great they just have better class pupil ratios and generally a better attitude towards success in academic attainment.

The surround stuff is really important (music, drama, sport etc.) so that needs facilitating too. State can offer the same and more bang for your buck but you will find that it requires more effort form you.

ethelredonagoodday · 05/12/2023 10:47

Nordlo · 04/12/2023 22:24

I think the children who benefit from private the most are the middling easily influenced ones. The ones that rise to the level around them need that environment to achieve. Mild SEN with a spiky profile also seem to better at private in my experience. Otherwise they form the forgotten middle blob at a state school.

Not read the full thread, but working my way through and agree with this.

My DD is Y9 at state school and absolutely flying. She's on a G&T programme and as a consequence getting asked to participate in additional stretching activities, has started Latin GCSE etc. She's very conscientious, self motivated and organised. The school she's at is in some ways a bit heavy handed I think over minor things (forgetting kit/uniform etc results in a 'code') but she rarely falls foul of the rules.

For our DS, Y6, we're considering a local, more nurturing private. He's beyond disorganised, not very motivated, been 'working towards the standard' most of his time at school. We also suspect he may be dyslexic, so getting him assessed for that. I just really worry that the local state roule be a disaster for him, whereas our daughter is absolutely flourishing there.

I'm state educated, my DH is from a family of private boarders, so we have a different set of experience and expectations I suppose.

twdad · 05/12/2023 11:02

Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 10:42

Similar story:

9-7s

29% comp
79% private
65% grammar

Show quote history

Maybe your local independent is really academic (or really great at keeping their stats high at all cost) as statistically it should come somewhat below grammar.

You may find this interesting additional information. Again, this is purely if you're into numbers. I'm not making any case for one or the other. You need to arrive at your own conclusions, Cambridge Undergraduate Admissions Statistics:

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2022_cycle.pdf

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergraduate_admissions_by_apply_centre_2022_cycle.pdf

Private Vs State school
Newuser75 · 05/12/2023 11:07

user628468523532453 · 04/12/2023 19:27

Your stats are flawed. You're not comparing like with like.

If a selective school can't get high grades, then it's a really shit school. Private schools ditch the children who will mess up their stats.

Why is a selective school only achieving 39% at A or above? That's not very impressive.

I totally agree with this.

Araminta1003 · 05/12/2023 11:10

@KovskyMinsky “Academic from a highly selective university.”
Could you actually afford private school on your salary?

My reading of England at the moment is that a lot of academics, journalists etc. just cannot afford private school for their own DC anymore and there is a lot of pressure on politicians to do “state” as well, especially in the Labour Party. Go figure. Only those rich evil bankers and lawyers/actuaries/CEOs etc still do private school and some doctors selling their souls doing private work...
There is a fair amount of that going on too.
On the other hand, obviously the kids of academics are going to be clever and do well. However, I totally understand why some of the female partners in my law firm send their DC to private school. They work 16 hour days, they do not have the time to engage their DC out of school. They also contribute a lot to our society financially through taxes. Their DC should not be punished. And I fear we may be heading this way as a society, and if that is the case, it is unacceptable. And I say this as someone who works part time, and engages my own DC and chose state schools.

Private companies just want the best persons for the job. It does not matter what sector they came from, private or state, Oxbridge or not. Except maybe in private wealth management where getting people to invest is the business model.
The problem these days is that so many people have 3 A stars at A level and most have a 2:1 or 1st from a Russell group uni. It is quite difficult to find the real deal and kids who still have drive and resilience and do not moan and want a challenge and to work well with others. Positivity and strong mental health and a “can do” attitude is primarily what I look for these days, good grades/uni are a given.
So if your DC is suffering in some draconian school and their mental health is suffering, and you can afford a better school, whether by moving or paying up, I would absolutely do it. Because coming out with strong mental health and happy really does matter. Being at least a bit street wise and resourceful, however, also matters especially once you seek employment.

Jonny234 · 05/12/2023 11:32

Imo if you know your kid is smart, perhaps top 1/4 currently and has a good work ethic, is determined and persistent then go for it.

If these things are not in place then it's questionable how much value will be added.

Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 11:55

twdad · 05/12/2023 11:02

Maybe your local independent is really academic (or really great at keeping their stats high at all cost) as statistically it should come somewhat below grammar.

You may find this interesting additional information. Again, this is purely if you're into numbers. I'm not making any case for one or the other. You need to arrive at your own conclusions, Cambridge Undergraduate Admissions Statistics:

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/statistics

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergrad_admissions_statistics_2022_cycle.pdf

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/sites/www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/undergraduate_admissions_by_apply_centre_2022_cycle.pdf

Show quote history

Why should it come below grammar? I think it's just good at adding value, it's not overly selective and haven't heard tales of hoards of children being managed out (probably the same level as grammars being 'asked to leave'). Small class sizes, specialist teachers etc - maybe this is what's making the difference?

OP posts:
Original poster
Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 11:58

It has raised the question of how it manages to maintain the high results though, not being overly selective. I might ask - as really wouldn't want DC going to a school that gets rid of pupils each year if they're not keeping up.

OP posts:
twdad · 05/12/2023 12:01

Ilikepinacoladass · 05/12/2023 11:55

Why should it come below grammar? I think it's just good at adding value, it's not overly selective and haven't heard tales of hoards of children being managed out (probably the same level as grammars being 'asked to leave'). Small class sizes, specialist teachers etc - maybe this is what's making the difference?

Show quote history

Yep, entirely possible. What I meant was overall, statistically, independent secondaries have their results marginally bellow grammars. As I said, maybe your local independent is an outlier and is exceptional, I can't possibly know.

pumpkintart · 05/12/2023 12:04

We opted for private for many reasons:

Class size
Access to teachers and their ability to be involved with queries or issues
Teachers knowledge of the kids in their care naturally higher due to numbers
Access to sport (especially at junior level)
Subject specific teaching
School hours - fit better and do not need wrap around

Other things have impressed us:
Quality of school lunches
General manners of all the children throughout the school
% that complete Duke of Edinburgh close to 100% at silver
Support offered to high performance athletes
General levels of expected behaviour
Consistent testing so big exams are not as stressful. They have end of year exams from year 2 so GCSE are not a big deal to them.

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