Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

Wouldn't it just!

It would make no difference at all in my area. The local states are all undersubscribed in my district council, there are only two private schools, numbers could be easily absorbed.

A handful might. Most won’t.

It will cause an even greater divide between the haves and the have-nots. As it is, many "normal" people make sacrifices and are just about able to manage the fees. If they go up significantly, only the very rich will still be able to go, thereby making the divide even worse and putting more pressure on the state system. Is this what Labour wants? [For reference, my kids are both in state schools.]

This was my privately educated son’s experience applying for training contracts at law firms. White, male private school does not mean what perhaps it used to fifteen or twenty years ago. While it was painful to see my son struggle—nobody likes to see their child like this—it’s just a necessary corrective, perhaps. He got a TC in the end and it was without any door-opening or nepotism and entirely on his merits, as he worked as a v. low-paid paralegal in a small town and proved his worth and then applied to his firm for the TC. (We did not support him financially in any way while he was earning the low salary.)

Would I send him to a private school again? Not sure. He loved the broader curriculum and sports. That was worth the financial pain but we wouldn’t be able to afford it now, so perhaps there’s an answer.

No I'm not worried. I'm expecting a lot of threads started by private school parents trying to scare monger about it though.

Yes, I suspect you are completely right!

In our city there is a very well regarded state sixth form college that already attracts a big influx from private secondaries. This will only increase if fees go up substantially and children from private secondaries will take more places from children from state secondaries.

People thinking the rich will go to state are so deluded. It would be the poorest middle class who would not be able to afford it that would move to state. Rich people can send their kids abroad too if the schools gets banned. Punish the rich ha,ha,ha…

@DanceMumTaxi

I’m not in favour of private schools at all and think they should never have been allowed in the first place.

Fee paying private schools existed long before free state schools. The earliest schools were fee paying private. We have one in our village (now the village hall) dating back to 1637. It was the only school, private, teaching in Latin, Greek and Religion. "Normal" people were expected to teach their own children in the basics like the 3 R's.

Fees were reduced in 1870 following a governmental grant, opening it up to a higher number of pupils from more normal backgrounds who could afford a relatively modest fee.

It was around 1940 when a state school opened nearby for everyone, resulting in it's closure.

Lots of schools have their origins hundreds of years ago. My son went to a state school which had been originally founded as a private school in 1235!

Nope. My son went to a state school, so I have no skin in the game. But I've enough life experience to know that it's a stupid proposal highly likely to do more harm than good just to play to the masses as politics of envy. Let's have equality, even if that means everyone dragged down to a low standard.

Have you looked at the report? Have you checked the assumptions, compared them to historic data? Not a great report.

Those who think that imposing VAT on private schools will miraculously improve the state system are deluded. Even the most optimistic estimates of how much money the policy would raise equates to 1-2% of the current state school budget. A 1% increase in state school spending won’t scratch the surface of the entrenched problems in the state system.

I don’t think the private sector will see a mass exodus overnight. What will happen though is that many parents will choose to switch to state at the natural break points (at reception, year 7 and year 12). Those parents will put their funds into tutoring, moving into the catchment areas of good state schools etc. There will be increased competition for the most sought after state schools.

Adding VAT onto fees is not going to improve equality. Even if parents switch their child to the state system, they will spend the money saved on education in other ways which give their children an advantage - tutoring, extra curricular, university fees so their children aren’t in debt, house deposits etc.

The richest parents will pre-pay fees several years ahead to avoid the VAT charge. It will become even more privileged and exclusive, because those children who will switch to state will be those whose parents are only just scraping by and struggle to pay the fees, often children with additional needs which state can’t deal with adequately. It won’t be the large famous public schools who struggle; it will be the smaller schools, often with lower fees.

This policy is nothing more than a policy of envy; a vote winner. Why not impose VAT on private health care? Those who can afford private healthcare are hugely privileged. What about luxury care homes? Is it fair that only the wealthy can afford luxury care in their old age? There is no VAT on air fares - the duty payable is often far less than the equivalent VAT. Where is the logic in there being no VAT on non essential flights, but then charging VAT on parents paying for school fees where the state has failed them?

The 'wealthy' will still be able to afford it lots of other people won't.

I think a lot of children will leave over time and this is going to cause an absolute shit show for the next 5-10 years.

My dd is currently in year 5 and we will probably go state if this is bought in. It'll be the final straw.

I suspect there will be lots of people similar.

However schools aren't built immediately so I'm not sure where the places will come from.

The majority of people who send their kids to private school are not lords and ladies who have multi millions in the bank. They’re normal people with decent enough jobs who choose to spend their money on their kids education. now for the record I hated my private school, don’t send my kids private, and my parents were teacher and nurse types.

how would you like to move in with another family into their smaller house and pay them the price of your old mortgage?

or sell your car to start car sharing a shitter car with another person but pay the same monthly payments as your nicer car while they pay nothing?

the blame doesn’t lie with people trying to give their kids the best they can afford - we all do that depending on our income whether it’s clothes, dance lessons, tutors, trips out, organic food. It lies with people and systems who perpetuate the inward, closed off loops of money. Investor groups who only invest in people they know. Government organisations who claim to be supporting industries but push people in their inner circles through and ignore those they don’t know. Employers and politicians and more who only employ their kids or their friend’s sons even though the kids have no natural skill or talent for the job in question. Yes these people send their kids to private schools but it’s not actually the schools that cause this.

it’s an entire group mentality that needs to be changed. Getting rid of private schools might very well help, but don’t imagine every person who goes to a private school is part of this group. In fact, there are not many private schools have have these kind of powerful people - why? Because they all stick together at a few schools. They’re not scattered all over the country going to the local private.

The problem with this argument is that the less well off with kids in private schools are the ones who will be forced into the state system - the really rich will be able to absorb the extra cost and so the kids in private will then be the richest and most privileged of all.

This. It’s a requirement of their charitable status that a number of children are given access via bursaries and scholarships.
Remove the charitable status and that requirement goes and it’s then a matter of conscience for the business.

Push children of wealthier families into state schools and the catchment areas for the better state schools see housing pressure ( at least here in Scotland) , and guess who loses that battle ? The less well off.

I have no children & was educated in my local comp. so my comments are based on observation and anecdotes, but it seems to me, as pp have said, take away the private school facility and the better off will find ways to plug the gap - private tutors, sports clubs, whatever it takes. Most of us would if we could and saw a benefit to our children

Same here, to be honest… I might not say ‚disgusting‘, but I‘m not a fan of private schools.

Exactly. There will be lots of people like you - those who would otherwise have chosen private at year 7 but now won’t. Those parents won’t settle for a failing comp. They will be fighting for a place at the best state schools by moving to good catchments and paying for tutoring. The “privilege” won’t disappear - it’ll just happen in different ways.

I doubt there would be a mass exodus overnight; however, schools which are struggling will fold and so in some areas you will be likely see suddenly a large number of children needing to be accommodated at once (there was a thread recently where this happened and it was in an area with no other schools).

Some parents will struggle to keep their children in a school, or at least get to a good exit point (say end of GCSEs), but if a school closes then they are likely to move into the state sector.

I imagine a lot of private schools (especially with charitable status removed) may in the short term partner with equity firms and produce a product to get round this (so you will be able to borrow x years fees and pay them in a lump sum, avoid VAT, and then you pay back at say 6/7% interest over a longer period). Private schools could then possibly invest this sum to raise ongoing capital to then keep fees at a certain level, or invest in some big capital products sooner and offset against VAT and again to minimise the impact for several years.

My husband is from South East Asia and all his family would literally do anything to get their children into private school (work every hour, live in tiny flats in "rough areas") they can not understand this hatred of them. I guarantee even if they put VAT on fees all of them will keep their children in (take another job, lodgers etc).

It will create some problems over the following 5 years:

• People who weren't sure will choose a state school place (as others have said using that money to buy next to good schools and forcing other children out)
• People will delay entry (so rather then 4+ will go in at 7+, or not do juniors and save for secondary.
• House prices will go up round "good" primary schools, state secondaries and grammar schools (pricing out poorer students)
• See below, I anticipate you will see an increase in middle class parents pushing for EHCPs to try and get places private school places funded. I don't criticise this, but again it will be these parents who can fund reports and lawyers and can therefore push through.

Ultimately, middle class parents will be fine and the policy won't improve things for poorer students. It will create a lot of chatter, but (a) won't raise significant funds and (b) won't probably reduce private school numbers. I remember when labour abolished assisted places and Tories were saying it would lead to huge numbers of kids in state schools, because schools would not be able to cope and Labour said it would raise all this money which they would invest in state schools.

Labour funded the infant school cap not because of this money (they allowed kids to finish their education so they didn't suddenly get £100 million over night), but because the economy was in a good position and they could spend the money. Private school numbers remained actually similar.

The big public schools will be fine: (a) because they have extremely wealthy families, but also (b) they will be able to offset huge amounts of VAT on capital projects and so reduce fees (the indications are the impact will only be 10% on public schools versus nearer 15% for most day schools). You may see some days school folding - so the gap will just increase in terms of inequality in education.

This would be different because it would be a hit at one go, but as I say there are ways round the increase in the short term.

It's a voter winner because a lot, particularly of "middle class" voters (the floating voters Labour needs to win over) in this country hate private schools (my experience the most hatred tends to be people who could probably afford if they lived in a smaller house/SAMH went back to work). Interestingly there is not a clamour for VAT to be put on private tutoring, extra-curricular activities (which is generally what a lot of people advise when it comes to private school, "buy in a nice area, spend the money on tutors and extra-curricular activities which you would have got in the private school".

I only hope there is some provision for children who are neurodiverse/disabled whose parents have chosen to educate them in the private sector (often to ensure smaller classes sizes and smaller environments) will be able to get a VAT exemption (in the same way you can when you are buying other products for a disabled child). Children who are below threshold for EHCP but are only able to cope in education because they are in small supportive schools (which just aren't available in the state sector - or at huge cost via EHCPs), often these parents are struggling to pay fees. Given they are already "saving" the government money by paying for a private school place, it seems wrong that they then get hit with VAT. Labour are saying they will improve SEN provision; however, that won't happen overnight.

Yes I am there are 4 private schools within 20min drive from me and 2 state secondary schools both are already oversubscribed one of them had increased this year's year 7 by nearly 20% no idea where they fitted the extra year 7s.

State school rolls are falling. In primary school currently, and within a few years se ondary. The school rolls are predicted to fall by more than the number of private school pupils. So there won't be an issue.
In reality nearly all private school pupils come from very well off families, the stats support this. There have always been pupils moving from the private to state sector after a family financial issue. This will continue to happen and a small extra few families will have to do this.
Some small failing private schools might close.
But overall the impact on schools and parents will be small. Remember private school rolls have increased in spite of very large fee rises in the last few years.

Totally agree with this.

Both mine went from (state primary to) private secondary to state sixth form college. They certainly weren’t the only ones.

The falling birth rate means that there are more empty places available in state schools than there used to be (LOADS where we are; I know it's not the same everywhere, but it's becoming more common and will become even more common). Schools can't be properly comprehensive if families opt out. And education as a whole won't change until we really are all in it together. I have a lot of experience of this as my kids are the only ones in our wider family who are in the state sector.