Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

Because it's politically very difficult! Also, there is a liberal argument against banning them altogether, as I mentioned in my pp, it's not a simple issue. You would also have the practical consequences of having to expand the state school system to accommodate the 7% of children who currently go to private schools. Anyway, this policy by labour is 'technically' a separate issue (although I guess support for it will broadly fall along the lines of whether or not you support private schools) - you could (in theory) agree with the principal of private schools and object to them being VAT exempt. We pay VAT on services in this country. Private Schools have been historically been exempt due to having 'charitable status' but many people think this is an irrational classification. One thing to allow wealthy people to send their kids to private schools, but another altogether to give them a tax break in order to do it.

If only private schools were the only reason for inequality in this country.

They can't claim back VAT on some of their biggest costs, i.e. wages, business/water rates, loan interest, etc.

I’ll be upfront, we’re considering private school for our DC, though the eldest is still 2 years away from starting secondary school. They go to a very good local primary, but our local secondary options are woeful. DH and I are both state educated, I went to one of the worst school in England at the time (officially ranked in the bottom 10 in the country) and I still wonder what life would have been like had I been able to go to even a slightly better school.

We’re not rich (fees would be paid for out of a combination of savings, an inheritance and some from general income) and it is definitely not a “status” thing for us. The nearest private school is a medium-sized cathedral school that is not an academic hot house but is well regarded for its pastoral care, but too many people see the words “private school” and automatically think of Eton and the like. Most private schools are pretty small, many of them take in a large number of children with SEND - the state system will not cope if large numbers of those children are forced back into the sector.

Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts on whether private education is a “good” thing or not, but let’s face it we all want to do what is best for our own children. Until there is serious investment in the education system in this country then there will always be people looking to outside options, be it private school, tutoring or simply buying a house within catchment of a “better” school.

It’s a nice idea that money raised from VAT on school fees would go back into education, but it won’t will it: not when the NHS is on its knees, social care is appalling, etc.

The change in charitable status would, from my limited understanding, be much more difficult, involving a change in the law, and likely legal challenges that have the potential to drag out for years.

Private school is the only way my disabled children can currently access an education. I’d love for posters to share what parents like myself and many others should do.

Exactly. Couldn't have that though, rich kids mingling with the commoners.

Yes, it's the socialist way, to drag everyone down to the same, low, level.

This is correct but won’t make much of a meaningful difference. The biggest cost for schools is staffing - which doesn’t have VAT on anyway.

Similarly, neither do books. So schools aren’t actually incurring that much VAT overall.

I do contribute to the state school myDC go to. I wish more parents would but in our area a lot simpler can't afford to. I'm really symptomatic them because my DM struggled when I was a child.
In terms of your taxes- everyone pays those taxes they're not you buying a state school place. Childless people pay them, even tourists pay some taxes when they visit. Is there a discount I should have been claiming be fire I had the kids?
I am happy to pay towards a state education because I want our society to give all children a good start and a good education. I want it to be fair and not based on how much money their family has.
Private school is an option for those that can afford it. It's going to get a bit more expensive when labour are elected. But it's already really expensive and when there's the state option it's a luxury. As a tax payer I don't want to subsidise your child's luxury education over other equally deserving children.

I was going to post the same IFS study as @Notagains, the conclusion is that most families won’t move their kids, and there will be a net gain to the treasury.

Only 6-7% of kids go to private schools. Sure, there will be some families scraping by to send their kids, but most pupils are from privileged backgrounds. 2 kids at a £15k per year private school requires c £50k per year of pre-tax income, no one who can spare that is on the breadline (or if they are they can’t afford private school!).

No, I'm not concerned about this. The vast majority of parents will carry on paying for private education in any case. If individual schools have lots of families who have so overstretched themselves that they can't afford the extra, school managers will be worried about their own survival so they will make efficiency savings in order to absorb some of the extra costs without passing them on in higher fees. A few extra kids might end up in the state sector, but I doubt there will be many.

Private schools might have charitable status but they're run as commercial enterprises, and if the market changes, they will have to adapt in order to survive. I'm sure that most of them will find ways of reducing costs in order to hold on to their customers.

Nope. Mummy and daddy will probably just get the kids private tutors or set up their own co- operatives. The wealthy will be just fine. They always are.

Accessible education is not a luxury for children with additional needs.

Nothing will change.

Everyone saying this will level the playing field are deluded.
Parents who may have previously gone private but on a shoestring will now just buy houses closer to the best state schools thereby reducing access for parents who can't afford to do this. That is exactly what we will do. The best state schools will then have a higher % of wealthy middle class kids which reduces diversity.
Only the truly wealthy will be able to afford VAT rise + annual fee increases so private schools will become even more elitist.
There will be gap to get any increase in funding into the system and I haven't seen any proposals to build new schools etc.

Why aren't people crying out against the 11+ system where parents pay ££££ for tutoring their kids, that doesn't create equality as again it prevents the poorest kids from accessing a higher quality education. Just adding VAT on private schools won't significantly level the playing field.

Parents will always try to buy advantage for their children whether that be tutoring for 11+ or sending their kids to private school. You just can't ignore this fact.

Why aren't people crying out against the 11+ system

They do, including me.

Wealthy international students will always be able to pay for the fees, the sector will continue to exist. There are lots of families who scrimp and save to pay the fees and they are the ones who will find it difficult.

Ours in private it at the moment but we have moved to be in catchment of a good state school so we have option to move them for secondary. So yes, we will deprive three other children of places at one of the best state schools in the county and narrow the already small catchment. We are not the only parents at our school doing this.

The VAT thing is a blunt tool and will have unintended consequences.

The concern would be if they don’t have charitable status and there is no need to maintain that status it’s the kids on bursaries that will be kicked out.

I also imagine any scholarships will be withdrawn.

Don't have a problem with people educating their children as they see fit. Don’t see how they can be any different from home schooling on principal. We shouldn’t be forced into being educated by the state if we don’t want it.
Do have a problem with their charitable status on principle. Don't have a problem with them failing on principle either. I agree though that a sudden influx of children into an already stained system is not ideal. It’s all very well saying we prefer the Finnish system but it needs to be planned for.

@twistyizzy

Everyone saying this will level the playing field are deluded.

I agree. The truly "rich" will employ their own private tutors or send their kids abroad for the "private" education they want. Or they'll move to the catchment areas of top state schools and drive up house prices, pushing others out of the catchment area and into catchment areas of crap comps.

It's just another of Labour's "policies of envy" that appeal to the masses who don't understand Human behaviour.

People who genuinely think this will improve state schools really are deluded.

The only way to truly equalise the education sector would be abolish private schools and allocate places by lottery. They don’t want to do that because genuine equity is unpopular. Very few people willing to accept that approach for their child.

Also disagree with the 11+ system and thankfully live in an area that doesn’t have it but has good state schools.

nope not worried, no more so than I generally am about the state of the state school system. We need more money, vat on private school fees is one way to do it.

@Nutellaonall then you are lucky to live in an area with good state schools. We aren't so if we are forced out of private we will move to be in an area with good state schools. Tell me how that creates a more level playing field?