Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

But this is about whether they pay VAT on the fees, rather than whether we scrap private schools. We pay VAT on services in the UK, why should private schools be exempt?

Don’t care. I think private schools are divisive and should be banned.

There are state school places, they just might not be in the school you want. The rich won’t stop sending their kids to private schools no matter what happens. A few might switch to state. Maybe those parents will shout loudly about how shit things are in state schools so that they improve.

Nail on the head. Labour just want to drag everyone down to a low common level in the name of fairness. It has no interest in improving the state system (whether education, health or anything else) up to the quality of the private system. Just politics of envy!

If they go bankrupt, then they can sell their buildings to the state and we’d have more state schools

This is gloriously naive. They would be sold to developers for a princely sum. Private schools are not going to be requisitioned at a nominal sum to be turned into state schools. This sums up the debate on this.

Those of you with wealth stating private education is a necessity for children with additional needs are very fortunate not to be living on an inner city sink estate in Liverpool or Leeds or Newcastle or even somewhere in Essex or Cornwall. No matter how additional the needs, if you're from those backgrounds private education might as well be a trip to Mars.

If you have never personally experienced life in such places you have no real understanding of just how huge the disparity now is between the wealthy and the deliberately impoverished. There aren't enough charitable places to go round either.

I'm not saying for one minute that you might not have had to scrimp to send your kids to private school with its smaller classes and generally better equipped facilities, particularly staff to pupil ratios.

The fact remains that wealth means those children have had far more chances than the kids in my family have had (several of whom have or have had additional needs). The ones whose parents had the foresight to leave England 20 years ago have fared best.

I'd like to see a world where every child is able to have parity of access and opportunities but I can't help feeling we'll be living on the moon before it happens in England.

They could be requisitioned. If the right government were in power.

I think there are differences of opinion on that, rooting from the fact hat no-one knows how many people will take their kids out of private school due to the added VAT.

@Redlocks30

Maybe those parents will shout loudly about how shit things are in state schools so that they improve.

People have been shouting loudly about all kinds of state services for decades, but nothing ever improves, regardless of the colour of rosette of the party in power at the time. You're very naive to think a few more people shouting will improve things. The rich will just continue to make alternative provision, potentially including sending their kids abroad for private education, or moving abroad themselves and depriving the UK of their tax revenue in other areas.

living in a country where the government can decide to requisition property because it wants to ban the business activity of the owner is all well and good, until you are on the wrong side of the argument and someone requisitions your property.

From what I have seen, those who are most vocally against private schools are usually those who have the good fortune to have access to (or have previously used) good state schools.

Anyone who had choice between:
a) sending their kids to a local comp that is falling down, has a serious bullying problem, knife crime and a 10% GCSE pass rate (I'm describing my old secondary school there by the way, not an imaginary school)
b) opting for private (which lets assume they could afford)
c) moving house to get into a better catchment area
and says they would stick with the state school on offer to them on principal is lying. The majority of parents will always do whatever is within their own means to get the best educational outcomes for their children.

Lets face it, politicians of all parties send their kids to private school/are products of the private system and Labour are no exception - 14% of the Labour MPs elected in 2019 went to private school.

A lot arent really suitable as state schools The classrooms tend to be small as they are built for smaller classess. The building are often historic with associated running costs the state would have to take on the upkeep. The state cant even maintain the existing school stock.

Some might be perfect but many wont be.

And yet l taught under a Labour and a Conservative government.

TBh education was pretty ‘amazing’ under Labour. Small classes, lots of support, lots of funds to tap into. Teaching under the Tories has been horrific.

So l think ‘amazing’ may well happen.

We live in a country like that. How do you think the government acquired the land to build HS2 on? Or the M roads?

There is precedent of requisition at a fair value for the good of society. Education is more important than a railway or motorway. So why not?

Punishing the rich always works out really well historically. What could go wrong.

Countries like Norway have moved from a private/state system to a fully state system, often with very good outcomes. It can absolutely be done.

Don't be ridiculous. The costs of legal challenges, court hearings, delays, etc., would be ruinous. Local councils are reluctant to put CPOs on normal housing as they can't afford the legal/court fees to deal with challenges etc. You're talking millions of pounds in legal/court fees for every CPO proposed for a large building like a school.

We've got a run down/derelict secondary school in our town that's been closed for around 15 years. It's just one application/proposal/challenge after another costing several million so far. That's for proposals to either demolish it and rebuild it as a school, or to demolish and rebuild it as a hospital. If the council and other public sector bodies can't agree between themselves what to do with it and end up in court challenges for arguing over public sector use, how much worse will it be when developers get involved in arguments between them, the owners, and the Education dept?

Little bit of internal DIY can fix that. We already have a lot of state schools in listed historic buildings.

It'll be great they are gone. Then the richer people will be more interested in state school education.

ok, but requisitioned at fair market is just buying them up? Given where these schools are and the vast grounds they own that sounds very expensive. I live next to Highgate School - it's one of the most expensive parts of London and the school is huge with many playing fields. I am not sure what a fair market value would be for the site but it would be hundreds of millions of pounds. Doesn't exactly sound like a silver bullet.

@TrailingLoellia sorry you are living in fantasy land. The government can't even mend the schools that are crumbling around them now and they need a massive cash injection. How is any government going to be able to afford the legal wrangles to requisition private schools and then afford to maintain them + the grounds. It would be cheaper to just build new schools on brownfield sites.
The trustees of private schools will 100% sell all assets to private investors as their job is to get the highest return possible.

Exactly. Nothing will change about the underfunding of state schools until all parents really are all in it together.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

TBh education was pretty ‘amazing’ under Labour. Small classes, lots of support, lots of funds to tap into. Teaching under the Tories has been horrific.

Rose tinted glasses there. Maybe you were lucky in the school you taught at under Labour.

The school my son went to at that time was crap. The library was unusable for many years because the roof was leaking and bits of plaster kept falling off the ceiling. Their swimming pool had been condemned as it was pre-war! The entire top floor was out of use due to the leaking roof. The car park and playing fields housed several temporary classrooms that were dropping to bits.

That was late noughties after Labour had been in power for about a decade.

Yes, "some" people enjoyed shiny new schools with atriums and other crap like that, but lots were basically ignored and continued to be left to rot. Some, like you, were clearly lucky, others weren't.

I agree they should be taxed. Don’t disagree.