Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

People are 'crying out against the 11+ system'- there's loads of research showing it increases inequality.

They could do a lottery system for school places: there are many ways to sort this widening gap https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2017/mar/14/school-admissions-lottery-system-brighton

On the one hand it will increase the numbers of children in state schools. On the other hand those children coming in will on the whole be children who are capable of functioning in a classroom environment. Anything to reduce the percentage of disruptive children in a classroom must be a positive.

VAT is a tax on the end user . So if I buy ribbon and that has Vat on it I am the last user so have to suffer the tax. If I use that ribbon to make hats and my turnover is greater than £85000 pa then I must charge Vat on my sales to people . If the amount I charge is greater than the amount I suffer I have to pay over that amount to HMRC , if it’s less then I get a refund . So if I school charges VAT then it will be able to reclaim any VAT it has paid on things it buys for example power, insurance, food , equipment, building costs . Until now independent schools have not been able to do this ( state schools can through what is called a s146 claim) Most of an independent schools costs are payroll but obviously they do have some vatable purchases and the big schools have lots in their capex. Think how much cheaper that swimming pool will be if you can reclaim the 15% Vat

I am not aware that individuals can reclaim VAT by using a trust . Trusts pay Vat so this seems unlikely but happy to be told otherwise

@PlipPlopChoo but those disruptive children will still be there and will still demand most of the teacher's attention. In your scenario each child would then have even less attention from the teacher. How is this a positive? You can't rely on ex-private school kids to sort behavioural issues within schools.

On the other hand those children coming in will on the whole be children who are capable of functioning in a classroom environment. Anything to reduce the percentage of disruptive children in a classroom must be a positive.

Plipplop how will these children who can function in a classroom prevent disruption? It only needs a couple of disruptive children to prevent the class functioning as it’s meant to.

Sorry twistyizzy another x post!

but those disruptive children will still be there and will still demand most of the teacher's attention. In your scenario each child would then have even less attention from the teacher. How is this a positive? You can't rely on ex-private school kids to sort behavioural issues within schools

In the long term more classrooms will be required. The ratio of disruptives per class will gradually reduce as this transition of numbers from private to state happens. Whilst not immediate the teachers job will get slightly easier as the ratio of plebs drops.

@PlipPlopChoo i suspect the parents who are use to the private school atmosphere will via legal routes (the right to safety and education) have the disruptive students removed.

i suspect the parents who are use to the private school atmosphere will via legal routes (the right to safety and education) have the disruptive students removed

I had not even thought of that but yes absolutely this too. One might hope that facilitates the provision of more numerous SEN specific places of education.

Richer people tend to have louder voices and more influential contacts.

greenspaces4peace · Today 19:24

@PlipPlopChoo i suspect the parents who are use to the private school atmosphere will via legal routes (the right to safety and education) have the disruptive students removed.

Another example of private school parents being some sort of wonder workers. If this legal route is possible why on earth aren’t the parents with children at state school now using it?
Every thread about private education has parents going on about how clever, well educated and well paid they are and how proud they are that their children go to state school. Why aren’t they onto it?

Richer people tend to have louder voices and more influential contacts

There are plenty of well connected Labour MPs with influence who have children at state schools. Why aren’t they doing something about it?

Another example of private school parents being some sort of wonder workers. If this legal route is possible why on earth aren’t the parents with children at state school now using it

Are you honestly saying that the top tier wealthiest people in the country have no more power than us average Joannes and Joes?

Pull the other one.

@Barbadossunset on one of the current threads it's been suggested guilt. ordinary parents from all walks are made to feel guilty when children behave violently. teachers are made to feel that they have misjudged, not implemented, not recognized all sorts to feel responsible for horrible situations (gaslighting and coercive control in effect being told it's acceptable to be abused).

Are you honestly saying that the top tier wealthiest people in the country have no more power than us average Joannes and Joes

I don’t think these top tier wealthiest folk are going to be using state schools - VAT or no VAT.
What about Labour MPs, or Alastair Campbell, Robert Harris, Greg Dyke - ok the latter have grown up children - but there are plenty of rich liberals who use state schools. Why don’t they do something?

@PlipPlopChoo on every private school post there are plenty of posters who claim to be wealthy but choose state option. Why aren't they improving the state system?
You are extremely naive if you truly believe that the wealthiest parents will use state schools, they won't as they can afford alternate provision.
Why is it the responsibility of private school parents to fix the state sector? Why can't existing MC high earners who already use state schools do this?
As a parent you can't just waltz into a school and demand that disruptive pupils are removed, get real! LAs have a legal obligation to educate all children, so where do you imagine the disruptive pupils will go?
Yes more classrooms will be required but the 1.7 billion raised from VAT won't be used for this as it is such a paltry amount in the whole education budget so the extra kids will just be squashed into existing classrooms, raising the amount of kids in each class.

😄

I think the short term consequences of this policy have not been thought through.

many private schools won’t survive- student exodus as 20% is too much (unless extremely wealthy)

state schools already have teacher shortages, lack of space, etc. how are they going to cope?

good catchment areas will become even more expensive than they already are!

im all for top class state education for all, is this really going to active that?

@SleepQuest33 no it won't

Yes, there are rules and plenty of established case law and guidance etc., as to what happens to funds when a charity ceases to be a charity. It's illegal for funds to be paid out for non-charitable purposes. Usually, the trustees (or if there are none, the Courts) will transfer the funds to a different charity with similar aims and objectives, of if there is no "matching" charity, they'll find a charity that's the next best fit.

I've been involved in two cases. One was a local Agricultural Show charity who owned the land upon which their annual show was held plus substantial funds. Like lots of others, the demise of the local farming community meant the show was no longer viable so the charity was no longer needed. The trustees arranged for the funds to be transferred to another similar agricultural society in the next county which still operated an annual show as it was in a more rural area who expanded their area of operation to the area previously supported by the local charity.

The other was a football league ground held in a charitable trust set up about a hundred years ago by a local benefactor. The club wanted to move grounds as the old one was too small and holding back club growth, and it ended up in Court cases (non contentious but such a major change needed court scrutiny and approval) and ultimately agreed by Parliament, that the original charitable trust could be wound up, but that the proceeds had to be used to set up a new charitable trust with more up to date constitution and improved rights to benefit both the football club and the local/wider community, which resulted in a bigger stadium, plus publicly available all weather sports pitches and a publicly available gym.

They'll invest in private tutors to have an increased chance to get into grammar schools and/or invest in homes which are in good catchment areas.

twistyizzy · Today 19:50

@PlipPlopChoo on every private school post there are plenty of posters who claim to be wealthy but choose state option. Why aren't they improving the state system

Another question which is often asked and never answered.

I wonder whether this will be the case. This is purely annecdotal but many of the people I know who've chosen private have done so precisely because their child wasn't capable of functioning (well) in a classroom environment. They looked at private because they thought the child would be better in a quieter environment, with a higher staff ratio and often because the school had good SEND provision. Most of these children have then been diagnosed with ASD or ADHD. These are often people who never intended to educate privately but felt they had to because their child was struggling so much. I imagine a 20% increase would be a struggle and they might well have to go back to state. Whether they'd be disruptive I don't know.

TBh education was pretty ‘amazing’ under Labour. Small classes, lots of support, lots of funds to tap into. Teaching under the Tories has been horrific.

I think you are misremembering. I taught back then too.

Class sizes were still as they are now ime, except maybe at sixth form level. A level classes were possibly smaller, though some subjects were still high. GCSEs were around 30 pupils, and ks2-3 were still 30-35 pupils per class. I think ks1 was still as it is now.

We had no more TA support than many school have had over recent years. In secondary that was minimal ime. My school has more TAs now than it did in 2009 when I joined, though less than it did a few years ago now due to not replacing some as a result of budgets.

Teachers were still dipping their hands into their own pockets to buy resources for their classrooms. It wasn't resources on tap - not in secondary ime anyway.

I remember it being definitely better than it is now, but it certainly wasn't amazing at all, in my experience in secondary schools in Derbyshire and South Yorkshire.

That's very typical of most private school haters - "I suspect the majority are managing very well" so why not to squeeze them more.

Ok, my own case (not "suspect", not anecdotal) - I'm a sole earner with two dependants, DC is in one of the top private schools, no bursary, but after fees I have £19k a year to leave in London for 2 adults and DC for everything - bills, food, clothing, fun, etc. No car, only public transport. No mortgage - I own outright one bed flat, DC has bedroom, adults sleep in living room. I do it because DC has ASD and private means world of difference to them.

VAT will push me out and I won't have any choice but to move DC to state.

BUT - we're in prime catchment of one of the best grammars in this country. DC is super strong academically and will get a place there with no issues (competition for their current school place was considerably higher than for grammar), depriving another child this place. I'm in my 50s and used to extremely frugal lifestyle because of school fees - I planned to work for another 8 years at least, but now I will simply reduce from full time to 2-3 days a week immediately and then retire in 2 years means HMRC won't get my quite sizeable tax anymore.
So everyone's winner here...

Oh yes, I didn't mention on my previous post that if we move DC to state sector, I would drastically cut my working hours to less than half so not only would we take places in an excellent state school at cost to the government, we would also be paying far less in income tax as I don't need to work to pay fees.

We are in the fortunate position that clubs and activities would still be accessible even if VAT was charged at 20%.

Just like with Brexit, those who believe its a great idea are the ones who are likely to be impacted most negatively by this