Is anyone else worried about the effect of rising private school fees on state schools?

[BabyIcecream]

Where I live there already aren't enough school places. Three big state secondary's, one is catholic, they are all over subscribed and bursting at the seams using old buildings with not enough funding.

Ive seen reports that at some private schools upto a third of pupils might leave if the fees go up due to VAT.

I'm worried about all these extra pupils needing places, DS already finds his school overcrowded and whilst I don't agree with private education putting extra pupils into the state system is just going to further disadvantage our children.

Unless money raised by increasing private schools costs is going to be used to fund state education? Does anyone know?

Some very rich people will be quite happy about this policy change because it will make it easier for their DC to get into some of the top schools again, in London, and places like Eton, Winchester etc. It had become quite hard to get in for the rich whose children were not stellar academically. So there will be winners and losers. And some people will be quite happy that there will be no more bursary kids in their DC’s house anymore either. Although I do hope that the richest schools find a way to keep their bursary schemes.

I wonder what will happen with the heavily subsidised school fees many teachers get at private schools. Would these also somehow attract VAT? Do they pay tax on it as a “benefit in kind”? If not, this could lead to some recruitment issues in top private schools as well. However, I do not believe it will translate to more Maths teachers in state secondary schools. If they want more people to do state school teaching long term, offer subsidised housing. Take the private schools that do not survive financially, build houses/flats for teachers on the extensive grounds etc. This is what the private schools do to attract great loyal hardworking staff.

This. I'm in NW London and we have a great amount of private. Judging by the last entrance exams, there isn't going to be much movement here if any.

No, I have no opinion on it. If a family can't absorb 20% increase they probably couldn't afford it in the first place. I don't value private education and it's not a necessity so I don't really care, but it does seem right to me that they pay tax, so I suppose I have a slight opinion, but wouldn't demand it change.

Araminta1003 · Today 17:02

Some very rich people will be quite happy about this policy change because it will make it easier for their DC to get into some of the top schools again.

Good point. I hadn’t thought of that but it’s true. Or maybe they’ll allow in more overseas pupils and charge them more like universities do.

what do you think I’m jealous of?
I don’t have kids so doesn’t impact that.
i didn’t go to a private school but … I did get a first class degree from a Russell group, get onto one of the most competitive graduate schemes & now in my early 20s I’m in a job that I love (being paid a wage that puts me into the higher tax bracket) and and buying my second house. So even thought I went to a public school ( 😱 ) I’ve done quite alright for myself so far in life.

So nothing to be jealous of there either… could it be that… I have an opinion that differs to yours…

In all seriousness, I’m not jealous - I just don’t think it’s right they don’t pay VAT. I can see the inequalities it drives at every level - even the way you talk about yourself at interview to sell yourself, connections to even get the interview in the first place. The U.K. has awful social mobility and this is exactly one of the reasons why. I don’t think it’s right to have a two tier education system but if we have to have one then yes they should pay VAT. It’s just my opinion.

It’s also my opinion that it’s quite funny to be a bit of a wind up sometimes so maybe I did get carried away earlier 🤷‍♀️ 🎣 but this post stands true.

Interestingly, when we did a recent open day at the independent school we are considering for our DC, the Principal told DH (who asked what the future plans for the school were) that he could fill the school twice over with boarders from China based on the applications they get. However he said he was anti expanding the school (currently 1,000 pupils from nursery through to 6th form) and was limiting the number of Chinese students they took as he didn’t think it was good for the school demographics. They currently have 28 different nationalities at the school though only 30% are boarders.

My point being that this is what will happen with the more well-known schools, they will simply be filled with overseas students.

I’m assuming you mean a state school rather than a public school - two very different things in the UK.

Haha yes you’re right I do mean a state school… okay that’s another reason I don’t like them - annoyingly named 😂

Who pocketed the money for the real estate sold to developers to build 350 homes? Was it an incorporated charity? Where do these funds then end up going? Who profits? Because someone always does.

The school was huge, with extensive playing fields, a new block that housed cooking and art facilities, a sports hall and a pool. Everyone from the area used the pool for kids swim lessons and took their DC after school and at the weekends to learn martial arts, football and rugby.

The school itself was great for SEN students. It went into financial difficulty and closed. None of the local state schools could accommodate them. The school as set up by a religious group who own a lot around our area and in our nearest city. The school actually had a 350 year covenant on it saying it could only be used for education.

Our town and surrounding area has had a massive population explosion with the building of thousands of houses. It was thought that the council would take it over and convert it into a 6th form, freeing up the smaller 6th for more junior places. Despite having the full spectrum of facilities within its grasp and a set of teachers, it declined. The site is still abandoned. 5 years later it’s only now that appeals have won and the building company who will make 350 homes on it, can go ahead.

You think private schools will close, and their lovely buildings and facilities taken over by the state. They won’t. The council will make a quick backhander, and stick a few porter cabins on state ever decreasing playing fields and tell us to suck it up.

@PuddlesPityParty
“ I can see the inequalities it drives at every level - even the way you talk about yourself at interview to sell yourself, connections to even get the interview in the first place. The U.K. has awful social mobility and this is exactly one of the reasons why. I don’t think it’s right to have a two tier education system but if we have to have one then yes they should pay VAT. It’s just my opinion.”

Errr… this is envy. You are envious because you think some of your competitors aiming for the job you have/got had it handed on a plate to them, because they went to private school.

The trouble is that if you do end up having DCs further down the line, private education is exactly the kind of thing very successful women choose so that the piano lessons, hockey, mentoring, homework etc happens at school whilst you beaver a way and pay 40/45% per cent tax.
Let’s hope the government sort out state education before you need to use it. It has markedly deteriorated in the last 10 years and this sort of hate policy will not resolve the issues. We just need more money especially for children with special needs and a far better working environment for teachers plus extra perks. Educating the next generation really matters - it affects the whole of society.

“The Principal told DH (who asked what the future plans for the school were) that he could fill the school twice over with boarders from China based on the applications they get.”

Yes, we are very happy to provide an elite education to the offspring of many in the Chinese Communist Party so they get to clearly understand how we work and in the case of universities’, there has been attempted theft of patents and all sorts. Really good forward thinking by our governments, as usual. It is possible that some of this education will be directly funded by the Chinese Government itself. However, now that we are just some shitty little island, who even cares.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/06/50-chinese-students-leave-uk-in-three-years-after-spy-chiefs-warning

Yes, tutoring is never openly discussed. No need to declare on UCAS forms.

It’s also my opinion that it’s quite funny to be a bit of a wind up sometimes so maybe I did get carried away earlier

Puddlespityparty. Yes well I suppose since you got a first at a Russell group uni and are now super successful in a higher tax bracket buying your second house I’m surprised you felt the need to be so petty.
Maybe the Russell Group uni recommended doing that as a way of furthering your argument.

when i think of private schools i'm thinking of the lovely prep's around london (think Garden House etc.), but i gather the highest percentage of students going to private is at 6th forms vs primary or secondary schools. then there are grammars and the few historic "public".
imho, the money won't trickly down immediately, yet some pressure on state schools will be immediate. again just my view, the families who will be forced for financial or due to closure of schools to join the state system might have a very very low tolerance for disruptive behavior (the biggest reason people choose independent schools). so the many who have fought for inclusion may find their children excluded for a few years until the books get balanced and statistically this will affect the lowest income bracket of society.
so the very ones that think the closure of private schools will help the mainstream state schools will be disproportionately adversely affected.
on another level i firmly believe there will be other ways to tax shelter finances and sadly those that are so squeezed and struggling will not see any financial gain from changes to the system as it is.
people may have wanted to vote for them due to the visibility of the antisocial behavior/poverty on the streets/food bank use but touch their children's educational opportunities and zap lost votes.

Legally the incorporated charity is the owner of the land therefore cit rightly owns the proceeds . If it went bust I suspect it mostly went up its creditors , probably the bank. If there was any left over then if the charity was unable to use the funds to pursue its’ legally constituted objectives ( which would have been approved by the Charity Commission as part of its charity scheme) then they could be given to another charity or a grant made to suitable qualifying beneficiaries . The money cannot just be taken by the trustees , they are not shareholders .

Yes, we are very happy to provide an elite education to the offspring of many in the Chinese Communist Party…..

Yes it seems an irony that the children of high ranking member of the CCP are educated at some of the most elite schools in the world.
Are there - or have there been - other examples from Communist countries?
East Germany or the Soviet Union? Not that I know of, although there were plenty of Russian students educated here after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Venezuela? Cuba? North Korea?

@PuddlesPityParty for the last time ……. Independent schools do pay VAT , shedloads of it in fact, quite a lot of it they may now be able to reclaim. What they do not do is charge VAT. These proposals by the Labour party do not make schools pay VAT they are proposing that schools charge VAT to their customers . If you don’t understand the policy then do not comment on it

@cyclamenqueen from what i have read, there are ways for people who are charged VAT to reclaim that on their taxes especially if the school fees are paid via a trust which can be set up at any time by anyone. is that correct? so that the end result looks like it scores voting points but will not really change anything.

I think the proposed benefits of this policy will take decades to filter through and will never be fully achieved as many parents will just pay regardless. Sadly even if all the money was immediately put into schools, there are still many potential problems. Either not many students will influx in case inequality will simply be compounded or loads will leave and there won't be enough places to put them. Privately educated schools are not evenly distributed so there could be real hot spots with massive class sizes, inadequate classroom sizes and not enough teachers. Either way, I don't see Joe Blogs little boy at the local primary benefiting.

@Wisenotboring precisely. A waste of time and money on all sides but hey as long as they get a soundbite!

@cyclamenqueen ”Legally the incorporated charity is the owner of the land therefore cit rightly owns the proceeds . If it went bust I suspect it mostly went up its creditors , probably the bank. If there was any left over then if the charity was unable to use the funds to pursue its’ legally constituted objectives ( which would have been approved by the Charity Commission as part of its charity scheme) then they could be given to another charity or a grant made to suitable qualifying beneficiaries . The money cannot just be taken by the trustees , they are not shareholders .”

Is there a way of ensuring any surplus moneys will go to an overall Educational Charity maybe for the benefit of state education/SEN children in general etc. Could we pass some trust laws to that affect or not really? It is such a hugely complicated area of law, I cannot remember much of it at all. It must be a difficult time for the trustees in some of these schools as well? A roadmap might be helpful?

Yes that’s one of the main reasons that I chose a private prep for my DC as it was the only way I could continue with my career (which invokes working long hours) whilst making sure that my DCs could still do plenty of extra curriculars. The alternative was to give up work and send my DCs to state school which would have meant that not only would the state need to fund my DC’s school places, they would lose £1000’s in tax revenue from me as a higher rate tax payer. Some of my female colleagues did decide to give up work and opt for state school. I suspect that more will do so in the future as private schooling becomes increasingly unaffordable.

It’s not envy! Your first sentence is totally made up. I’ve seen it with people I work with yes but none of them have gone for my jobs and got them 😂 because I’m good enough to stand my own … because I work hard. I like working hard, it’s fulfilling.

The problem is, I’m actually really big on promoting social mobility since I’m not a massive twat who only cares about myself. You actually know nothing about me and have made up a load of shit in your post for your own bizzare narrative.

It’s nothing to do with “envy” it’s to do with giving people equal opportunity to thrive and to stop idiots getting into places of power just coz they’re mates / parents / family connections got them there. Look at the state of the U.K. right now and look at the Tory party right now. Half of them don’t deserve to be where they are and wouldn’t be there without their connections, and that’s why we’re in such a shit show. Some of us are trying to look at the bigger picture rather than our own little lives.

Your latter part of your post - yes we do need more money and funding in education but as I’ve already said I don’t think we should be in a two tier system - all children should have the same access to good education and the state should be funding that,.. but that’s never gonna happen with a Conservative Party in power! I do want change but I think everyone deserves the chance to be able to succeed.

edit: posted too soon

For the last time… good I’m glad of it. Hope that clears up some confusion.